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Topic: No Bravery - Iraq war (bpilgrim) Vol 3 |
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a sheep writes |
Posted: 03-Sep-06 20:51 |
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Hi All
this is bpilgrim Vol 3 – Vol 1 and 2 are both full up!
to those who are new, bpilgrim is a US war veteran who made the following (unofficial) video about the Iraq war to accompany James’s excellent song ‘No Bravery’:
http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
he wrote:
”As a U.S. Vet I am appalled at what our criminal government is doing in our names via this ILLEGAL WAR … and therefore I am committed to do what I can to help spread the word about what is going on over there to help bring it to an end and bring our troops home ASAP.
Our media has sold out a long time ago and it is up to us to get the ugly side of the war out and why I felt it necessary to put this video together.
With the power of our voices and the INTERNET we may be able to stop these criminals before they can do further damage to other countries.
Bringing our troops home ASAP is the best way I know of to support our troops.”
bpilgrim (former USN BM3 pilot rescue swimmer)
This video has been the catalyst for lots of discussions on this board. I, for one, hope they continue on this thread. It has been an education to read the postings so far, particularly as they have come from all over the world.
Sheep (Stop the War, UK)
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lpfan |
Posted: 03-Sep-06 21:26 |
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you might be interested in this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_yfbNmP
THI
from Keith Oberman
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a sheep writes |
Posted: 03-Sep-06 22:21 |
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i was VERY interested in that, thanks for posting, Ipfan
can anyone tell me who Keith Olbermann is and how his speech has been received in the US?
sheep (UK) |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 04-Sep-06 06:32 |
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FIRST - THANK YOU for beginning vol 3! That was getting a bit difficult to navigate!
Keith Oberman has a nightly show on MSNBC during the week - similar to Anderson Cooper, but of course with his own "style". I'm sure others know much more about him.
Ipfan - I'm so glad you shared this video. I missed it and haven't heard anyone else mention it. I'll be emailing it to my friends and relatives though.
Halleluiah! Could we Americans finally be waking up? I am crying tears of relief. There's a feeling in the air that reminds me of the way my parents have described the "McCarthy era/witch hunts" of 1954 (?). I pray we are finally coming to our senses and that journalists are realizing they have a sacred duty to pass on information, and yes, to also editorialize with their own comments.
[Edited by Old Blondie on 04-Sep-06 07:05] |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 04-Sep-06 09:17 |
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I asked Billy to update the link on the no-bravery site to the new thread. Just as a reminder for folks who might be interested in vol 2: it can be found on
http://www.jamesblunt.com/cgi-bin/teemz
/teemz.cgi?board=_master&action=opentopi
c&forum=Temporary_General_Forum&topic=10
22
I heard about Oberman on
www.prisonplanet.com
but the video downloaded too slow for me.
This is a site run by Alex Jones. Maybe radical to some but a lot can be found there. As always: stay curious, stay sceptical.
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Yuroon |
Posted: 06-Sep-06 22:32 |
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Bush made another "brilliant" speech today in which he compared Bin Laden with Hitler and Lenin.
It's funny, just like his granddaddy worked with Hitler's henchmen slashing off money and gold stolen from the Jews and other victims of Nazism, the Bush family has worked for decades with the Bin Laden family. It this the comparison he wants to make???? |
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MinMin |
Posted: 07-Sep-06 07:14 |
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Congrats on the Vol.3!! This thread is one of the most important ones on the boards and i'm very happy you continue your discussions here.
love and peace,
MinMin (or Atena's mom!) |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 07-Sep-06 09:02 |
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Hi MinMin!
How are you? Why don't you and Atena write something here if you can find the time? We would love to hear from you!
So, GWB admitted that secret CIA prisons exists. What the world knew all along.
Gross violations of the Geneva Conventions and probably against American law. And now what mister Bush?
You think will win the world's respect again? Don't think so.
Since as he say it, the US is at war, the secret prisons and the torturing and executions are warcrimes.
Maybe one day Bush will end up in the Hague (where I lived). Oh but wait!
That would not be a wise thing because America adopted a law stating that America can INVADE the Hague when an American is held by in International Criminal Court there.
Yes, America is a good ally of Holland. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 07-Sep-06 09:07 |
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Europeans countries aren't innocent either: some the secret prisons were in Europe.
Yes, European countries are good allies of America.....
Shameless. |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 18:34 |
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In some US news today, a congressional
panel finally concluded
that there wasn't a connection between
Al Qaida and Saddam, nor was there any
WMDs.
In other words - the war was launched
using manipulation and lies.
The Bush Amin is blaming all
this "poor" advice on information it
received from Iraqi informants. These
anti-Saddam nformants had ulterior
motives for removing Saddam (such as
regaining power in Iraq) - and made up
stuff about WMD in order to get Bush
excited about ousting Saddam.
But at the same time, OUR OWN CIA
EXPERTS were giving the Bush Admin
the opposite information - that there
was NO WMD and no connection to bin
Laden. And more than half the world
was telling Bush that his information
didn't add up - and besides, did we
really want to give the extremists
such a present?
Q: Which group Bush choose to believe -
American CIA forces and the UN
inspection team --- or foreign
informants who would love nothing more
than to gain total power in Iraq post
Saddam?
A: Bush chose to believe the people
who gave information that came closest
to what the neo-cons wanted.
Now the most AMAZING thing to me today
is that these neo-cons STILL haven't
learned a lesson from this huge
blunder that is now causing so much
chaos and growing anger toward the USA.
The Bush Administration is STILL
getting information from people who
have other motivations for
revealing "sources" and "secret
plans".
These are foreigners held in
their 'secret' prisons, who give
us "info" whenever they are threatened
with torture.
Senator John McCain - a former POW -
already has told us many times that a
prisoner will give all kinds of false
information if they fear torture, and
that's why torture is a lousy way to
obtain facts.
Will Bush listen THIS TIME??
It just seems to me that the Bush
White House wants to be known as
the "MOST IGNORANT LEADERSHIP IN THE
WORLD" in future history books.
I'll give them credit for trying to
detract attention away from their
mistakes by "purchasing" news segments
that gives their side only.
And their most recent manufactured-
media brainwashing plan is an ABC TV
movie that spends 2 hours telling
everyone that CLINTON is to blame for
9-11.
Does Bush think we are really that
MUSH BRAINED to buy into this kind of
deceptive CR&P?
Then the Republicans say we are so
much safer with them -- all while
100,000 people cross the borders into
this country every year -- UNDETECTED -
- and they haven't even started a plan.
Then they have the AUDACITY to say the
Democrats have no plan!
A really lame Republican spokesman on
MSNBC yesterday was STILL trying to
claim that Iraq DID have WMD - he said
that Saddam must have "MOVED IT TO
SYRIA" just before the war....
Duh!
Everyone knew Iraq was about to be
attacked.....so this guy wants us to
think that they MOVED THEIR MAIN
WEAPONS OUT OF THE NATION - SO THAT
THEY NOW WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO USE THEM
AGAINST THE US DURING A WAR - JUST DAYS
BEFORE THE WAR STARTED, & THE USA BEGAN
EXPLODING BOMBS ALL OVER THEM????????
Stop and think about that again -- Tha
t Iraq secretly gave up its main weapons
in the days before they got attacked.
Does that make any sense at all?
Can you get any DUMBER than that?
And even worse --- Saddam was hiding
in a tunnel. Don't you think they
would have moved some of that
supposed "WMD" to --- at the
very LEAST --- be used to protect
their LEADER from being captured???
These Bush-supporters seem like they
wandering around in a fog, and are
questioning nobody despite mistake
after mistake. Did someone give these
people a stupidity pill?
I've had it up to here --- how about yo
u?
BK~
[Edited by Boatkitten on 09-Sep-06
;18:53] |
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virginian |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 20:13 |
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The U.S. news media seems to be tippy-toeing around the truth ~ politically correct "there was no evidence of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction nor any ties to al Qaeda" blah blah blah. Hey, why not just say the $ob l*i*e*d?! He lied us into a war that has wreaked devastation on innocent Iraqis and from which there is no satisfactory exit. Examine every one of his policies ~ foreign and domestic ~ and the underlying reason is to enrich Beltway Bandits and their ilk. Some folks have gotten very rich from this war ~ a transfer of tax dollars from the (disappearing) middle class to government contractors. |
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phxfan |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 20:21 |
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Please don't group all republicans together. I am not an ardent Bush supporter, but I am a republican and I don't think I'm wandering around in a fog. I certainly haven't taken a stupidity pill.
Many republicans are questioning what is going on, just as democrats are. The news "reporting" on a whole is a joke. As the anniversary of 9/11 approaches, read some of the books out now that question what really happened.
Also, as someone who grew up within 15 miles of the US border with Canada, I can completely understand how easy it would be to just walk into the US. There are no fences along most of the US/Canada border. There are some along the Arizona/Mexico border, but it is easy enough to get through. If someone is really determined to get in, they will.
Lastly, if the US is so awful, why do thousands and thousand of people want to move here every year? It's not a perfect country to be sure, but it truly is a melting pot of culture.
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 21:00 |
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Of course I know not all Republicans are the same - but if someone goes on television and gives his title as "Republican Spokesperson", then he is talking for all Republicans.
Same goes for those phone in talk shows, where you have a Republican line and a Democrat line. About 1 out of 10 on the Republican line are only now finally questioning what direction the Bush Administration is going -- but the other 9 are standing behind him despite all the proof that he manipulated information to take us to war.
Another tactic used by Republicans is to attempt to badger people -- saying things like "If you're against the war in Iraq, then you don't like America".
Bush constantly does this.
From day one, I've felt that the people who LOVE America are the people who make SURE they elect a person who doesn't put the US into so much danger.
The USA is not "awful", the only thing awful about our nation is the awful people in power who are destroying all the great things about her.
BK~
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 21:19 |
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All the information about the manipulated reports that are just NOW getting into the news were around back in 2002. People who really cared, scoured those reports and found them to be unfounded.
That was back in 2002 - before the war.
Now we are 3 years into the war -- those SAME documents are showing exactly what they showed when they first came out. Nothing has changed.
So why did it take THREE YEARS for the truth to finally come out in the media?
Who was burying those facts? Was it the same Republicans who gave out CIA agents names whenever they tried to give critical thought about Iraq?
Was it radical talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Coulter?
99% of what these people put on the air is manipulated, twisted and sometimes just plain false information.
My husband works in a warehouse where they listen to these shows all day long - and they call those liars heroes!
If they aren't mush-brained, then they must have taken a stupid pill.
All it would take for them to find the truth that these folks are lying to them would be to start looking at real documents. Then they'd figure out how badly their government is treating them.
These same evil people are trying to work up our anger at Iran, in preparation for war there. They keep talking about how Iran cannot have nuclear weapons ------- but Israel has them, so how can we pick and choose?
Besides --- we told Saddam that we would not attack if he cooperated with us. For more than 10 years, we dismantled his weapons programs and dissallowed any sales of military or air force equipment to his country.
So after all this happens....what do we do????? WE ATTACK HIM!
What incentive does that give other countries to cooperate?
NONE! Now North Korea, Iran and who knows how many other countries are realizing that cooperation means you LOSE. NUKES means you WIN!
So of COURSE these countries want NUKES - the sooner the better.
It's yet ANOTHER bonehead plan on the Bush Administration, making this world more unstable than ever.
BK~
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Yuroon |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 21:54 |
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Wow! A lot going on now.
Well, it's official now: a congressional panel comcluded -finally- that there were no WMDs and no link to Al Qaeda.
What the world and a lot of Americans -certainly those in intelligence- knew all along.
All the so called evidence was tailored to the wishes of the White House.
What would it take for the mushy-brained Americans or people who taken the stupidy pill as BK puts it, to finally believe that they have been lied to?
Santa Claus and Mickey Mouse saying it also?????
Is there something in the tap water that makes your brain go mushy? Or something in fast food? Or does years and years of indoctrination through television make you believe all the cr*p they feed you?
The November elections will be the showcase to the world in what way and in what number the American people have finally waken up from their sleep.
Maybe this time the UN or the EU should send monitors to see if the elections are free and fair. Cause we all know what happened in 2000 and 2004.
If the Congress and the Senate are not taken back and the balance of power restored, the world will be going to face some very difficult times.
Evil has a face and a name, actually a lot of faces and names. They are called Bush, Cheney, Rusmfeld, Rove, Wolfowitz, Bolton and all the other neo-con MFs.
(Other countries have them too but we are now talking about the American ones)
And yes, what BK said is right: everybody wants to get their hands on nuclear weapons because that means that you won't be attacked. |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 09-Sep-06 21:55 |
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June 2003
Dr. David Kelly to the British Parliament: "Britain ran a covert 'dirty tricks' operation designed specifically to produce misleading intelligence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction to give the UK a justifiable excuse to wage war on Iraq. Operation Rockingham, established by the Defence Intelligence Staff within the Ministry of Defence in 1991, was set up to 'cherry-pick' intelligence proving an active Iraqi WMD programme and to ignore and quash intelligence which indicated that Saddam's stockpiles had been destroyed or wound down. The existence of Operation Rockingham has been confirmed by Scott Ritter, the former UN chief weapons inspector, and a US military intelligence officer. He knew members of the Operation Rockingham team and described the unit as 'dangerous', but insisted they were not 'rogue agents' acting without government backing. 'This policy was coming from the very highest levels,' he added.... Ritter has also offered to give evidence to [the British] parliament."
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Do
cuments/DrKelly.htm
2004:
The second Australian scientist who worked on the fruitless hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction has broken his silence. John Gee has followed Rod Barton in claiming he gave the Government early warning in 2004 that no weapons would be found. But Dr Gee says his expert views were not welcome in Canberra and he's accused the Government of trying to smother his assessment after he arrived home from Baghdad.
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/
2006/s1730266.htm
2006:
"The administration pursued a deceptive strategy of using intelligence reporting that the intelligence community had already warned was uncorroborated, unreliable, and in critical instances, fabricated."
http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dl
l/article?AID=/20060909/NEWS07/609090386
We can learn about adultery in the White House in just 3 months --- but it takes THREE YEARS for Americans to finally learn the true information about reasons for a WAR????
Our country is in serious trouble if we don't fix this NOW!
Another headline today:
Saddam 'saw al-Qaida as a threat', and rejected overtures from al-Qaida and believed Islamic extremists were a threat to his regime (From the US Senate Report)
PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THEY JUST ***NOW*** FIGURED THIS OUT???
This sudden *revelation*(?) is not only EMBARRASSING to all intelligent US citizens, but it's also horribly frightening.
MAYBE A COURSE IN WORLD HISTORY MIGHT BE IN ORDER FOR ALL POLITICIANS FROM THIS DAY FORWARD!
How can they be so ignorant! :(
I still think this all must just be a BAD DREAM~!
BK~
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 10-Sep-06 14:54 |
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The first man I spoke of above - chief weapons expert for the UK - Dr. David Kelly, gave information to the BBC in 2002 that refuted Tony Blair's claim to his people that "Iraq could launch weapons of mass destruction in just 45 minutes". Kelly said the report had been "sexed up" from original intelligence, and that Blair was deliberately exaggerating evidence.
In July 2003, UK's Ministry of Defense told Kelly that he could no longer talk to the BBC or any media.
In other words, they silenced him from telling the truth.
But shortly after this, Kelly's name was leaked that he was the source of the BBC reports -- and the case suddenly turned into a case against Kelly rather than a case against the "Sexed up" documents. In other words, the story was 'spun'.
July 17, 2003 - Kelly is found dead, an apparent suicide.
In the US, another man involved in seeking weapons in Iraq, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, was revealing the same things as Kelly and criticizing the war in Iraq....and that's when someone in the White House went to the media and outed an undercover CIA agent by releasing her name to the media, putting her in great peril - who also happened to be the wife of Wilson.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/
28/60minutes/main994753.shtml
In other words, they punished him for trying to get the truth out.
If anyone out there feels this kind of action by their government is "OK", then they deserve to live in a rogue nation ruled by tyrants, who suppress freedom by bringing peril to those who question them.
Whoever feels this is a "proper way" to run a country, then you can rest assured "secret prisons", breaking universally accepted treaties, allowing torture and being hated by the entire world will soon be regular way of life.
A country that adopts this way of life better start stockpiling missiles because perpetual WAR will be inevitable.
Is this the kind of nation you really want?
So now you can see why I've become so angry about this phony "Iraq War". I've been watching these stories unfold from the very beginning - and watching the opponents be silenced and harrassed. Yes, I am very angry.
Everyone should be putting a halt to what has been going on in our White House.
Or at least be worried about it...
BK~
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IM A FRIEND |
Posted: 10-Sep-06 17:54 |
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I needed a good cry this morning. I knew this music with this revealing video would do it. "He has been here"...and the Face of Satan appears. How symbolic.
Love,
Nazarine |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 10-Sep-06 18:02 |
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There are great doubts about the "suicide" of Dr. Kelly.
In Europe there were some other suspicious "suicides" regarding secret and covert operations. In Italy there was a scandal where a person suspected of terrorism was kidnapped of the streets and moved to another country where he was tortured. Some foreign agents (CIA) were arrested and later released in connection with the kidnapping. A technician that discovered the unlawful wiretapping later "killed" himself.
In Greece the president and other members of the cabinet were wiretapped.
The link that the intercepted phonecalls were diverted to, ended very close to the offices of the NSA. A technician of the phonecompany Vodafone whose systems were violated by the wiretappers was ordered by the prosecutor to collect evidence. He was found later dead. "suicide". These were people who never showed any signs of depression.
Cheney said this morning that America is safer against terrorism thanks to the policies of the Bush administration.
But then he also warned that a next possible attack could result in the deaths of 10's or 100's of thousands of deaths because next time they might use nuclear or biological weapons, brought into the US and assembled there.
So America is not so safe at all then. And do you know why? Because people can cross the border very easily and there is hardly any control on what comes into the country on containerships. Instead of securing the homeland, they decided to bring the battle to the terrorists. To Iraq where there were no terrorists. And in the meanwhile the terrorists in Afghanistan got away and now NATO has to fight them because they came back.
Does this all make sense to you?
It does not to me unless this is part of a bigger, dark and sinister agenda. |
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blue eclipse |
Posted: 10-Sep-06 21:06 |
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Nazarine- that is exactly what image I get when I hear that song. The dark angel Lucifer can be the only "he" that could be present at any scene of violent , merciless killing. I think we all suffer so much mentally when we are confronted by the darkest actions humans commit against each other. Until all people come to the conclusion that it is NOT permissable to take life in the name of a religous deity, we are doomed to send people to their deaths to defend the ideal that all life is worthy of respect, honor and mercy.
It is just so heart breaking that it will take much time and many resources to get that message out. We are more similar than different no matter the culture we come from. To be compassionate and willing to extend a hand with faith to an enemy is a goal I pray mankind reaches sooner rather than later.
To be self aware of how our choices and actions affect the global community is another agenda everyone should address quickly too. Self centeredness is something I think all people are guilty of too often, including myself at times.
To stick staunchly to antiquated dogma or historical teaching that one holds to firmly, only serves to illustrate that not taking all people's needs and beliefs into consideration is an indication of close minded , bullheaded leadership.
Time is an impatient mistress, she waits for evolution in understanding and knowlege. History shows us that civilizations have fallen into extinction when they refused to evolve, and when we refuse to evolve or learn from past mistakes, we certainly will repeat those errors over and over again.
As for the Bush administration, I don't think they can take all the credit for how terrorists are thwarted, as the issue is a global one. Strutting back and forth with a red cape sneering
"Come on- make my day..."
invites that administration to get the Horn- play with the bull, you get the .....
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 14-Sep-06 20:40 |
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I think its sad that Americans are satisfied with only trying to "thwart off" the next attack.
A true leader would be looking for what causes such anger and resolving the issue completely - so that we don't have to build steel walls around us just to survive.
As with street gangs, we know that dropping bombs on their homes would be counter-productive. We know that gang mentality stems from a community that feels helpless and has a bleak future. To combat gangs, we give these neighborhoods a purpose and hope for a better life for their children.
Our administration only knows how to bring our 'enemies' more horror and desperation. And for each family that we rain our horror upon, we can expect a dozen more families to grow in anger.
These "eye for an eye" tactics always lead to an increase in violence - on both sides. That's why our police and sheriff departments NEVER choose such a path.
I'm just in shock that the administration we put in charge of running our country is adopting these losing medieval tactics.
BK~
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Yuroon |
Posted: 14-Sep-06 23:21 |
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Why is it that countries run these losing medieval tactics? Why has US foreign policy since WWII in many cases just been an accumulation of failures and stupidities? Especially in the Middle East.
Is it just short sightednes or statisfying short term geo-economic and geo-political interests?
These tactics without any vision just comes back at you. Look what happen to Bin Laden: The CIA trained and financed this guy and supported him and the Mujahedem in kicking the Russians out of Afghanistan. When the Soviet Union as a result collapsed, Afghanistan was left to it's own devices. Instead of rebuilding Afghanistan, it then became a bastion of Islamic fundamentalistic hatred. This was the lead up to 9/11.
Usually, failures in American foreign policy didn't hit home hard but this time it did.
Many countries make mistakes in foreign policy. We in Europe had our fair share but I guess because of our historic ties we now have a little bit more understanding.
But are the foreign policy makers in the US really that stupid, I sometimes wonder. Don't they see things like other s see them when it's all so obvious for the world to see? Or is it part of an agenda, to create conflict and to keep the cycle of conflict going to serve the interests of the ones that profit from war and destruction?
We live in dangerous and pivitol times. After the collaps of Communism we thought -as Francis Fukuyama said- that history and ideology were dead. Liberalisms and capitalism had won and we -the democratic countries- would spread the message. It's been done in sucha vigarous and often disasterous way (Asian crisis, Russian crisis, sweat shops, etc.) that it threw about centuries old traditions and ways of doing things. Of course this can only lead to animosity and hatred.
Just like the Industralization led to conflicts on a worldwide scale -whether is was colonial war or the world wars-,
Globalization will also lead to conflicts. We see it now: it's the West against Islam. But it will be far greater than that I'm afraid.
Or is it what some forces want it to become? Create conflict to push their own agenda.
After the collaps of Communism, we in the West thought that the big battle between the ideologies of the 20th century was over. But now it resurfaced again. And what we thought was over -Statism in the form of Facism or Communism- is back. And with the new technologies of the digital age, far more dangerous than in the past. A new enemy (terrosime) has been created to serve as an excuse to build a strong State (this time Neo-Con) that has joined hands with the corporations with the goal to get completely in control of our lives.
Heard Bush say that Democratic countries are at the point where the outcome of the 21th century and the fate of millions of people hangs in the balance.
For once I agree with him, but I don't like the direction he wants to take it.
The world currently faces so many challenges. But if we would unite and use our sense and our technologies wise, we could solve many of these problems to the benefit of all. It's so easy to be cynical and throw your hands in the air (and as BK says it: to thwart off the next attack) but I think we should be optimistic. But we should also be realistic and vigilant: we need to get rid of the people that don't think in a holistic and global way. Who see everything fragmentically, who fail to see the interconnectednes of everything.
It's time that these people with their outdated visions of the world are send to the history books of human failure.
[Edited by Yuroon on 14-Sep-06 23:37] |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 15-Sep-06 17:23 |
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I just finished listening to the live press conference by President Bush. At one point he answered a reporters question about Iraq by saying, "...I never said Saddam had a hand in the terrorist attack of 9-11..."
This was immediately followed by Bush telling us how evil Saddam was, by adding, "...Saddam supported the families of suicide bombers..."
But then he failed to give the details of these "families" he was talking about --- most Americans have little understanding of the Middle East and are going to say "...Bush must be talking about Al Qaeda..."
But those of us who ARE paying attention to the Middle East KNOW that Bush is talking about Iraq sending money to the Palestinians when their houses were bulldozed by Israel. At that time, Saddam was under enormous pressure by the majority in Iraq - the Iraqi Shiites - to do something to show support of the Palestinians.
Saddam and the Shiites have never been allies, but this was one way Saddam could try to appease them.
In other words --- Bush DELIBERATELY twisted the information AGAIN to decieve us Americans!!!!
Is that the same as lying? Maybe not technically --- but it's just as sinister and evil. That man makes me sick.
I hope he gets everything he deserves for this manipulation and misuse of our great armed forces.
BK~
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Yuroon |
Posted: 15-Sep-06 17:53 |
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Geeeeesh,
I was also listening to his pressconference and thought the same thing when he mentioned "supporting the families of suicide bombers". In fact, Saddam did financially support the families of some suicide bombers but they were Palestinian suicide bombers NOT Al Qaeda. I was wondering how many people would interpret this as that Saddam was supporting the families of the suicide hijackers that flew into the WTC and the Pentagon or Al Qaeda suicide bombers.
I didn't get out much of the pressconference anyway. He talked a lot but said nothing new. He said something laughable (if it wasn't that serious) about the vagueness of article three of the Geneva convention. Something about that people held in detention should be treated in respect related to dignity, or someting.
And he said it was vague and his lawmakers and officials couldn't do anything with this. How about applying Christian values mr born again Christian? Like, thou shalt not kill. Or "treat you fellow human being like you want to be treated".
My goodness, if McCain says that torturing doesn't give you any valid info because people who are tortured will say anything to make the torturing stop (and he can know being a former POW), then why try to push this law?
Then they on to the economy and he made a remark that his family history had experience with this (it's the economy stupid!).
Well, he said that the economy is doing well with 4.7% unemployment and that his taxbreaks worked out fine for everyone (yeah right!) and then he said that in 2009 the American economy will have settled the deficit.
Well mr Bush, you started with a surplus in 2000! And what about the national debt that's out of control and that the future generations will be faced with.
Paw, what an embarresment for a president.
Btw, he was rated by some Californian University as the second most unintelligent (aka stupid) president in the history of the USA.
[Edited by Yuroon on 15-Sep-06 19:33] |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 15-Sep-06 20:02 |
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This morning I saw Sean Penn on Lary King live (we get larry King in the morning after it's been broadcast in the US).
Now here is a talented, intelligent and compasionate man, more compasionate than any of the policitians I have seen lately. And a great actor and director too! (if you get the chance to rent the movie 9/11, do it. There are 11 small movies from different directors from different countries lasting 11 minutes, 9 seconds and 1 frame. Sean Penn directed one on them and it's really great).
And there was also George Clooney with his appeal in front of the UN security counsil telling them that Darfur is happening on THEIR watch, it will be THEIR Ruanda, THEIR Cambodia, THEIR Auschwitz.
So, there is Sean Penn, George Clooney, Susan Surandan, Angelina Joulie, Robert Redford, The Dixie Chicks. There are some really dedicated celebrities out there that set a good example. Wish they somehow would organized. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 15-Sep-06 20:33 |
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I heard an interesting "factoid" - on Olberman. He was comparing the US government support to families after Katrina to what Hezbolah did for Lebanese households after the Isreali bombing. US gave $2,000 each to help relocate, etc. while Hezbolah gave $12,000 US equivalent. Now - who are those people going to ally themselves with? Hezbolah or US (etc)? I think the answer is obvious. Hezbolah obviously has an ulterior motive - but who doesn't? The US certainly does. Instead of winning over decent Muslim families with substantial, concrete aid, we are distancing ourselves from them by allowing their countries infrastructures to be destroyed, not to mention the deaths of thousands of civilian "collateral". What a chicken way of saying killing people. I know neither side is innocent when it comes to killing, brutalizing and just plain exploiting people. What better way to create even more "terrorists" who hate the US?
Also - I may not agree with all of McCain's politics,and he did give in to party politics in a way that disappointed me. But he is honest and fair. I trust what he says and admire him and his fellow Republicans who are standing up against the Bush administration's policy on interogation. Let's see - McCain, Lindsey Graham & a third I can't recall. These are good men.
I've been off the boards for awhile and need some time to "catch up" - but it is great to see celebrities use their influence to try and wake up governments to take action. The trouble is - if we don't do something, it won't be THEIR Auschwitc, Ruanda, Cambodia. It will be OURS.
Yuroon - thanks for the tip on the Sean Penn movie. Yes - he's one of the great actors of our time. Did you see "I Am Sam"? What a wonderful movie. |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 15-Sep-06 21:00 |
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Just before the press conference, I was watching the Montel Williams show. Montel has Multiple Sclerosis and has long been at odds with the Bush Admin about his decision to drop stem cell research funding, knowing that 10-20,000 embryos at fertility clinics are being disposed of each year -- when they could be used to find cures for autoimmune diseases, cancer, spinal injuries and other life saving possibilities.
So he wanted to talk today about getting out to vote to get things changed in our country.
Here's a video clip of today's show;
http://www.montelshow.com/featuredpromo
/?Date=2006-09-15
At one point he started crying - saying he was a 20 year Navy veteran who fought for the freedom of Americans to speak up when things go wrong -- and now was devastated that people no longer had the courage to speak up for what they believed in. Some won't even vote.
He wanted to bring up a lot of issues in todays show - - all issues that effect each of us: Top US scientists moving to foreign companies so they can continue stem cell research, national debt, trade policies, Iraq war, decreasing national wages, increasing wealth of the top 12% upper class, health care and price of domestic drugs, lack of funding for our schools, the increasing divide between rich and poor, school districts suing the US govt for not funding the No Child Left Behind Act yet forcing them to adhere, skyrocketing oil prices and record oil profits, lack of border security, loss of freedom, increasing anger toward the USA across the globe --
He said fixing all of the above should be considered "HOMELAND SECURITY". Fighting terrorists are only *ONE* small piece of our overall security.
They had a conservative talk show host as one of the guests, and all he could do is tout mantras of the Bush Admin. But the most silly of his comments was when he tried to get us excited about the new discovery of the possibility of 350 million barrels of oil in the Gulf of Mexico that we previously didn't know about.
What makes this so silly is that the USA currently uses BILLIONS of barrels of oil per year. The USA consumes 20 MILLION BARRELS PER DAY. 350 Million is only enough to feed our lawn mowers for a year! But I'm sure BP Oil and Chevron are excited about this.
Here's more on today's Montel show:
THE FUTURE OF OUR NATION
Today, we’ll discuss the major issues that people are talking about in our country: from the issues surrounding the upcoming mid-term elections, such as the state of politics in America, to nuclear weapons in North Korea, to stem cell research, to homeland security. These are some of the topics affecting Americans today, and we’ll give our viewers valuable insight into them.
GUESTS:
Jeanine Pirro Is a candidate for New York state attorney general. She’s had a 30-year political career, including being elected Westchester’s first woman district attorney in 1993. This followed after being elected Westchester’s first woman county court judge, in 1990. As a young prosecutor in 1978, Jeanine headed one of the first domestic violence units in the United States.
James Carafano Is a senior research fellow at the heritage foundation, a think tank dealing with foreign and domestic homeland security issues. He spent twenty-five years in the United States army, working on many national security issues.
John Hall Is a candidate for United States congress in New York’s 19th congressional district. He is an award-winning musician, former county legislator and school board president. He feels the situation in the nation and the world is at such a crucial juncture, therefore, he chose to run for Congress.
Dom Giordano Is a conservative radio talk show host and education expert. He began his 15 year path to broadcasting as an elementary school and high school teacher in Philadelphia and South Jersey.
Jeannie has two daughters, one of which has Diabetes. They are in favor of stem cell research because they believe it may be the answer to a cure.
Emma & Kara are Jeannie’s daughters.
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Yuroon |
Posted: 15-Sep-06 22:50 |
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Old Blondie: good to have you back. I hope you are well and ok.
BK: as always very well informed and you always give us good info and links.
Hope you can get your hands on 9/11. Sean Penn's contribution is just wonderful. It's about America that's lost its beauty and that 9/11 can be an oppurtunity to regain it.
Yes, the stem cell debate. I guess that it's a touchy subject for a lot of people. Not easy indeed. But a lot of good can come out of it. There is the potentiality that it can cure chronic diseases. Stem cells can copy and mimic any kind of cell in the body and that opens up possibility to to use it against many kinds of degenerative diseases.
The other day I saw a documentary on a doctor in the Ukraine that used it in patients who are suffering from muscle deterioration. He gets a lot of flack because he doesn't do any double-blind research (because he and his hospital don't have the money) but his patients are his best proof. From all over the world they come. But pharmaceutical companies and expert in the West haven't discovered it so it can't be true! Pfff.
Anyway. Ronald Reagan was very much against stem cell research. That was until he got Alzheimer. After that his wife Nancy pleaded to allow stem cell research.
Michael Moore in his book "stupid white men" comes up with all kinds of examples of people in politics who are faced with this kind of tragedies like the Reagans but also other. He also mentioned that Newt Gingrinch sister is lesbian (not a tragedy of course!). These politicians that suddenly -because it hits home very close- become a lot milder in some of their opinions. So in his book, Moore posed that we all should pray and hope for politicians to get faced with tragedies in life so that they change the law to allow for things like stem cell research!
Of course, this is kind of cruel but it is true that once things hit home very close, people become understandably very empathetic and understanding.
I wish that people would in general become more susceptable to other people's pain and suffering.
Maybe it's something neuroscience should work on: to make our brains become more empathetic.
But this is like Boatkitten said, just one of the issues that are important today in the US and other parts of the world. It's just not only about the war in Iraq or 'the war on terror'. Many issues are just as equally important but they get completely snowed under by the war in Iraq and on terror.
These issues also need to be adressed and people should become aware of them.
The other dat I saw an Oprah show about the state that some schools in the US are in.
Believe me, I now live in a country (Serbia) that has suffered (and caused suffering) a lot. I also lived in South-America. But what I saw on Oprah, I never expected in a country like the US.
That you certainly don't see in Serbia. In South-America yes. But you kind of expect it there. Not in the US. And this all thanks to cutting back on public spending because of neo-liberal policies.
Have a good weekend
[Edited by Yuroon on 15-Sep-06 23:06] |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 17-Sep-06 09:12 |
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Sean Penn on Larry King live said (and I can't remember if this is his own quote or that he was quoting Wells or someone else and I cant remember the exact words):
"Fascism will come to America. Maybe will disguise itself as anti-Fascism but it will come).
BK came some definition of fascism some posts ago and it remarkedly could be applied to this administration. Also, Bush administration claims that they are fighting the "Islamo-Fascist" so therefore anti-Fascists. Sean Penn could be right.
Illegal wars, preemptive strikes, manipulation of facts and truths, illegal surveillance and wiretapping, costudy without trial, illegal prisons, torture, less civil liberties, chips in your passport. Do I need to go on?
Orson Wells must be rolling over in his grave. He only got the year wrong but maybe he would think that 1984 has arrived.
[Edited by Yuroon on 18-Sep-06 09:35] |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 18-Sep-06 14:36 |
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FoxNews had a program on last week that gave US citizens tips on how to travel safely abroad -- by pretending to be Canadian.
If that doesn't break the heart of every proud US citizen -- that we are so loathed now that we have to disguise ourselves when visiting other countries? How could we have allowed this to happen?
During our next election we need to make SURE we find someone who will work to fix this, so the USA will be respected once more.
BK~
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TrixieF |
Posted: 18-Sep-06 14:58 |
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BK, to try and identify youtself as Canadian abroad is not a new thing. Even when I was in Uni 25 years ago it was done especially when hitchhiking across Europe. Often you would find non Canadians wearing our flag and other symbols on their backpacks. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 20-Sep-06 08:54 |
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Well, I do feel sorry for Americans that take an interest and that have liberal views on the world. All the neo-cons and 'know-it-better'-s can stay at home as far as I am concerned.
On a funnier note: to avoid being indentified as an American tourist, don't wear white sneakers or golf pants. These are dead giveaways!
[Edited by Yuroon on 20-Sep-06 12:13] |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 20-Sep-06 18:17 |
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I am SO happy that I have C-SPAN on my cable TV channels. C-SPAN enabled me to listen to the 2002 UN meetings when our experts were trying to explain that they didn't believe there were WMD in Iraq.
Yesterday, I had the privelege to listen to another very important meeting -- where we heard applause for the direct causes of all the problems in the Middle East.
Sadly, we won't here ANY of this speech on regular TV network news. Sad.
QUIZ: READ THE TEXT AND THEN GUESS WHO THE SPEAKER WAS.
Here's the text of that speech:
Today, humanity passionately craves commitment to the truth, devotion to God, quest for justice and respect for the dignity of human beings. Rejection of domination and aggression, defense of the oppressed. And longing for peace constitutes the legitimate demand of the people of the world, particularly the new generations and the spirited youth, who aspire a world free from decadence, aggression and injustice, and replete with love and compassion.
The youth have a right to seek justice and truth; and they have a right to build their own future on the foundations of love, compassion and tranquility. And, I praise the Almighty for this immense blessing.
What afflicts humanity today is certainly not compatible with human dignity; the Almighty has not created human beings so that they could transgress against others and oppress them.
By causing war and conflict, some are fast expanding their domination, accumulating greater wealth and usurping all the resources, while others endure the resulting poverty, suffering and misery.
Some seek to rule the world relying on weapons and threats, while others live in perpetual insecurity and danger.
Some occupy the homeland of others, thousands of miles away from their borders, interfere in their affairs and control their oil and other resources and strategic routes, while others are bombarded daily in their own homes; their children murdered in the streets and alleys of their own country and their homes reduced to rubble.
Such behavior is not worthy of human beings and runs counter to the truth, justice and to human dignity. The fundamental question is that under such conditions, where should the oppressed seek justice? Who or what organization defends the rights of the oppressed, and suppresses acts of aggression and oppression? Where is the seat of global justice?
A brief glance at a few examples of the most pressing global issues can further illustrate the problem.
A. The unbridled expansion of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons
Some powers proudly announce their production of second and third generations of nuclear weapons. What do they need these weapons for? Is the development and stockpiling of these deadly weapons designed to promote peace and democracy? Or, are these weapons, in fact, instruments of coercion and threat against other peoples and governments? How long should the people of the world live with the nightmare of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons? What bounds the powers producing and possessing these weapons? How can they be held accountable before the international community? And, are the inhabitants of these countries content with the waste of their wealth and resources for the production of such destructive arsenals?
Is it not possible to rely on justice, ethics and wisdom instead of these instruments of death? Aren't wisdom and justice more compatible with peace and tranquility than nuclear, chemical and biological weapons? If wisdom, ethics and justice prevail, then oppression and aggression will be uprooted, threats will wither away and no reason will remain for conflict.
This is a solid proposition because most global conflicts emanate from injustice, and from the powerful, not being contented with their own rights, striving to devour the rights of others.
People across the globe embrace justice and are willing to sacrifice for its sake.
Would it not be easier for global powers to ensure their longevity and win hearts and minds through the championing of real promotion of justice, compassion and peace, than through continuing the proliferation of nuclear and chemical weapons and the threat of their use?
The experience of the threat and the use of nuclear weapons are before us. Has it achieved anything for the perpetrators other than exacerbation of tension, hatred and animosity among nations?
B. Occupation of countries and exacerbation of hostilities
Occupation of countries, including Iraq, has continued for the last three years. Not a day goes by without hundreds of people getting killed in cold blood. The occupiers are incapable of establishing security in Iraq. Despite the establishment of the lawful Government and National Assembly of Iraq, there are covert and overt efforts to heighten insecurity, magnify and aggravate differences within Iraqi society, and instigate civil strife.
There is no indication that the occupiers have the necessary political will to eliminate the sources of instability. Numerous terrorists were apprehended by the Government of Iraq, only to be let loose under various pretexts by the occupiers.
It seems that intensification of hostilities and terrorism serves as a pretext for the continued presence of foreign forces in Iraq.
Where can the people of Iraq seek refuge, and from whom should the Government of Iraq seek justice?
Who can ensure Iraq's security? Insecurity in Iraq affects the entire region. Can the Security Council play a role in restoring peace and security in Iraq, while the occupiers are themselves permanent members of the Council? Can the Security Council adopt a fair decision in this regard?
Consider the situation in Palestine:
The roots of the Palestinian problem go back to the Second World War. Under the pretext of protecting some of the survivors of that War, the land of Palestine was occupied through war, aggression and the displacement of millions of its inhabitants; it was placed under the control of some of the War survivors, bringing even larger population groups from elsewhere in the world, who had not been even affected by the Second World War; and a government was established in the territory of others with a population collected from across the world at the expense of driving millions of the rightful inhabitants of the land into depression and homelessness.
This is a great tragedy with hardly a precedent in history. Refugees continue to live in temporary refugee camps, and many have died still hoping to one day return to their land. Can any logic, law or legal reasoning justify this tragedy? Can any member of the United Nations accept such a tragedy occurring in their own homeland?
Just watch what is happening in the Palestinian land. People are being bombarded in their own homes and their children murdered in their own streets and alleys. But no authority, not even the Security Council, can afford them any support or protection. Why?
At the same time, a Government is formed democratically and through the free choice of the electorate in a part of the Palestinian territory. But instead of receiving the support of the so-called champions of democracy, its Ministers and members of Parliament are illegally abducted and incarcerated in full view of the international community.
Which council or international organization stands up to protect this brutally besieged government? And why can't the UN Security Council take any steps?
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 20-Sep-06 18:18 |
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(Continued from above)
Let me here address Lebanon:
For thirty-three long days, the Lebanese lived under the barrage of fire and bombs and close to 1.5 million of them were displaced; meanwhile some members of the Security Council practically chose a path that provided ample opportunity for the aggressor to achieve its objectives militarily. We witnessed that the Security Council of the United Nations was practically incapacitated by certain powers to even call for a ceasefire. The Security Council sat idly by for so many days, witnessing the cruel scenes of atrocities against the Lebanese while tragedies such as Qana were persistently repeated. Why?
In all these cases, the answer is self-evident. When the power behind the hostilities is itself a permanent member of the Security Council, how then can this Council fulfill its responsibilities?
C. Lack of respect for the rights of members of the international community
Excellencies,
I now wish to refer to some of the grievances of (my) people and speak to the injustices against them.
Our country is a member of the IAEA (Int'l Atomic Energy Agency) and is committed to the NPT. All our nuclear activities are transparent, peaceful and under the watchful eyes of IAEA inspectors. Why then are there objections to our legally recognized rights? Which governments object to these rights? Governments that themselves benefit from nuclear energy and the fuel cycle.
Some of them have abused nuclear technology for non-peaceful ends including the production of nuclear bombs, and some even have a bleak record of using them against humanity.
Which organization or Council should address these injustices? Is the Security Council in a position to address them? Can it stop violations of the inalienable rights of countries? Can it prevent certain powers from impeding scientific progress of other countries?
The abuse of the Security Council, as an instrument of threat and coercion, is indeed a source of grave concern.
Some permanent members of the Security Council, even when they are themselves parties to international disputes, conveniently threaten others with the Security Council and declare, even before any decision by the Council, the condemnation of their opponents by the Council.
The question is: what can justify such exploitation of the Security Council, and doesn't it erode the credibility and effectiveness of the Council? Can such behavior contribute to the ability of the Council to maintain security?
Excellencies,
A review of the preceding historical realities would lead to the conclusion that regrettably, justice has become a victim of force and aggression.
- Many global arrangements have become unjust, discriminatory and irresponsible as a result of undue pressure from some of the powerful;
- Threats with nuclear weapons and other instruments of war by some powers have taken the place of respect for the rights of nations and the maintenance and promotion of peace and tranquility;
- For some powers, claims of promotion of human rights and democracy can only last as long as they can be used as instruments of pressure and intimidation against other nations.
But when it comes to the interests of the claimants, concepts such as democracy, the right of self-determination of nations, respect for the rights and intelligence of peoples, international law and justice have no place or value. This is blatantly manifested in the way the elected Government of the Palestinian people is treated as well as in the support extended to the Zionist regime.
It does not matter if people are murdered in Palestine, turned into refugees, captured, imprisoned or besieged; that must not violate human rights.
- Nations are not equal in exercising their rights recognized by international law. Enjoying these rights is dependent on the whim of certain major powers.
- Apparently the Security Council can only be used to ensure the security and the rights of some big powers. But when the oppressed are decimated under bombardment, the Security Council must remain aloof and not even call for a ceasefire. Is this not a tragedy of historic proportions for the Security Council, which is charged with maintaining the security of countries?
- The prevailing order of contemporary global interactions is such that certain powers equate themselves with the international community, and consider their decisions superseding that of over 180 countries. They consider themselves the masters and rulers of the entire world and other nations as only second class in the world order.
The question needs to be asked: if the Governments of the United States or the United Kingdom, who are permanent members of the Security Council, commit aggression, occupation and violation of international law, which of the organs of the UN can take them to account? Can a Council in which they are privileged members address their violations? Has this ever happened?
In fact, we have repeatedly seen the reverse.
If they have differences with a nation or state, they drag it to the Security Council and as claimants, abrogate to themselves simultaneously the roles of prosecutor, judge and executioner. Is this a just order? Can there be a more vivid case of discrimination and more clear evidence of injustice?
Regrettably, the persistence of some hegemonic powers in imposing their exclusionist policies on international decision making mechanisms, including the Security Council, has resulted in a growing mistrust in global public opinion, undermining the credibility and effectiveness of this most universal system of collective security.
How long can such a situation last in the world? It is evident that the behavior of some powers constitutes the greatest challenge before the Security Council, the entire organization and its affiliated agencies.
The present structure and working methods of the Security Council, which are legacies of the Second World War, are not responsive to the expectations of the current generation and the contemporary needs of humanity.
Today, it is undeniable that the Security Council, most critically and urgently, needs legitimacy and effectiveness. It must be acknowledged that as long as the Council is unable to act on behalf of the entire international community in a transparent, just and democratic manner, it will neither be legitimate nor effective. Furthermore, the direct relation between the abuse of veto and the erosion of the legitimacy and effectiveness of the Council has now been clearly and undeniably established. We cannot, and should not, expect the eradication, or even containment, of injustice, imposition and oppression without reforming the structure and working methods of the Council.
Is it appropriate to expect this generation to submit to the decisions and arrangements established over half a century ago? Doesn't this generation or future generations have the right to decide themselves about the world in which they want to live?
Today, serious reform in the structure and working methods of the Security Council is, more than ever before, necessary. Justice and democracy dictate that the role of the General Assembly, as the highest organ of the United Nations, must be respected. The General Assembly can then, through appropriate mechanisms, take on the task of reforming the Organization and particularly rescue the Security Council from its current state.
In the interim, the Non-Aligned Movement, the Organization of the Islamic Conference and the African continent should each have a representative as a permanent member of the Security Council, with veto privilege. The resulting balance would hopefully prevent further trampling of the rights of nations.
It is essential that spirituality and ethics find their rightful place in international relations. Without ethics and spirituality, attained in light of the teachings of Divine prophets, justice, freedom and human rights cannot be guaranteed.
Resolution of contemporary human crises lies in observing ethics and spirituality and the governance of righteous people of high competence and piety.
Should respect for the rights of human beings become the predominant objective, then injustice, ill-temperament, aggression and war will fade away.
Human beings are all God's creatures and are all endowed with dignity and respect.
No one has superiority over others. No individual or states can abrogate to themselves special privileges, nor can they disregard the rights of others and, through influence and pressure, position themselves as the "international community".
Citizens of Asia, Africa, Europe and America are all equal. Over six billion inhabitants of the earth are all equal and worthy of respect.
Justice and protection of human dignity are the two pillars in maintaining sustainable peace, security and tranquility in the world.
It is for this reason that we state:
Sustainable peace and tranquility in the world can only be attained through justice, spirituality, ethics, compassion and respect for human dignity.
All nations and states are entitled to peace, progress and security.
We are all members of the international community and we are all entitled to insist on the creation of a climate of compassion, love and justice.
All members of the United Nations are affected by both the bitter and the sweet events and developments in today's world.
We can adopt firm and logical decisions, thereby improving the prospects of a better life for current and future generations.
Together, we can eradicate the roots of bitter maladies and afflictions, and instead, through the promotion of universal and lasting values such as ethics, spirituality and justice, allow our nations to taste the sweetness of a better future.
People, driven by their divine nature, intrinsically seek Good, Virtue, Perfection and Beauty. Relying on our peoples, we can take giant steps towards reform and pave the road for human perfection. Whether we like it or not, justice, peace and virtue will sooner or later prevail in the world with the will of Almighty God. It is imperative, and also desirable, that we too contribute to the promotion of justice and virtue.
The Almighty and Merciful God, who is the Creator of the Universe, is also its Lord and Ruler. Justice is His command. He commands His creatures to support one another in Good, virtue and piety, and not in decadence and corruption.
He commands His creatures to enjoin one another to righteousness and virtue and not to sin and transgression.
All Divine prophets from the Prophet Adam (peace be upon him) to the Prophet Moses (peace be upon him), to the Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), to the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), have all called humanity to monotheism, justice, brotherhood, love and compassion. Is it not possible to build a better world based on monotheism, justice, love and respect for the rights of human beings, and thereby transform animosities into friendship?
I emphatically declare that today's world, more than ever before, longs for just and righteous people with love for all humanity; and above all longs for the perfect righteous human being and the real savior who has been promised to all peoples and who will establish justice, peace and brotherhood on the planet.
O, Almighty God, all men and women are your creatures and you have ordained their guidance and salvation. Bestow upon humanity that thirsts for justice, the perfect human being promised to all by you, and make us among his followers and among those who strive for his return and his cause.
ANY GUESSES WHO SPOKE THESE WORDS YESTERDAY?
Click here for the answer:
http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.ph
p?nn=8506290113
[Edited by Boatkitten on 20-Sep-06 18:23]
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blue eclipse |
Posted: 21-Sep-06 09:23 |
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alright, I'm very tired now, I should have been sleeping long ago, but BK , I will be back to read this & I'm really feeling the last threee or foutr paragraphs and I have to see the rest. Who spoke those words yesterday?
g' nite*
B.E. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 22-Sep-06 10:13 |
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A lot of food for thought going on on the General Assembly of the United Nations (GAUN). Whether is the speech of the Iranian president or the the one (hilarious!) of Chavez, the message is clear: a lot of people in the world mistrust Bush and the US.
And if this is not enough, on the sidelines also a lot is going on.
The pope says something he should have thought about a bit more carefully and which gets blown out of porportion by the press just to create good press opportunities and the whole muslim world goes nuts. Muslims of course have short fuses and no sense of selfcritism at all. But the pope could have known better as well.
And now you have president Musharaf of Pakistan saying that Pakistan was threatened into complying with the hunt for AL Qaeda and the Taleban with the threat of "being bombed back into the stone age". That threat was made by none other than the man that exposed the wife of a US ambassador as an CIA-agent (a federal crime).
Now, I always had suspicion about the vigor with which Pakistan helped the US fighting terrorism for it's a deeply fundamentalistic Muslim country.
Well, now we know why.
That also sheds some light on the role that Pakistani play in recent terrorism attacks or plans: in the 7/7 bombings and the plans to blow up airliners, Pakistani men were involved and rumour has it the Pakistani secret services.
For on the surface it seems that they cooperate with the US but powers hidden are doing just the opposite. Bin Laden probably hides in the remote areas of Pakistan but can not be caught. Why? Because he is protected by local militia and perhaps also sections of the intelligence apparatus.
Musharaf is probably the only one who the US can count on so they might wanna treat him with a bit more respect.
Fifteen years after the end of the Cold War the world is more divided then ever.
This year the world spends 1060 Billion dollars on weapons. 30 Billion more than on the high point of the Cold War.
Something else that I saw on the news was that the White House and the Republican reached a compromise on the new bill on the arrest and interrogation of terror suspects. So 5 years after 9/11 they come up with some legal framework after having kidknapped, tortured and who knows killed terror suspects. I don't know what this bill is all about but I don't trust anything that this administration produces.
Edit: I almost forgot, how stupid.
In the months of July and August 6599 people lost their lives in Iraq due to sectarian violence.
Also it has been said that torturing that takes place now, it worse than under Saddam.
[Edited by Yuroon on 22-Sep-06 10:21] |
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blue eclipse |
Posted: 22-Sep-06 22:12 |
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"Should respect for the rights of human beings become the predominant objective, then injustice, ill-temperament, aggression and war will fade away."
I've skimmed over the previous posts and some of the points are well taken. In my mind the problem is ultimately our persistence in formulating public policy and law using the Name or dogma of our particular religous teachings. For the core issue is always -
Who's God is the right and true representation of how all human beings should live?
All nations are divided among themselves over this issue, never mind the global divisions. The countries now being torn apart by our efforts to keep peace , enact change, and yes, where aggression is being used by all sides, have their own ideological hurdles to clear. The issue of the Middle East "problem" is and always has been the ideal that Islamic law is the only law. It breaks my heart to know that people who choose to become Christian are punished in some cases with death and their families are shamed. I have nothing against anyone who chooses a particular faith my self as long as it respects the basic fundamental idea that all people are worthy of respect and none are subjegated by any one man,men, woman, or women.
In North America Muslims find themselves having to defend their religous beliefs and are afraid of reprisals from others because of what is going on the Middle East. This is no different than the Israelis in the Gaza Strip. They are unwanted by Palestinians and the Hezbola are trying to stir sympathy from other factions there in the quest to eliminate Jews from the Holy Lands. All this is based in religous dogma, and other nations defending the right of Isreal to exist are caught up in a volatile situation not to offend leaders who are not Christian.
I don't advocate indiscriminate bombing of civilian settlements, and yet my government stood aside for far too long to try to stop the conflict between Lebonon & Israel.
To see civilians running for their lives while waiting to be removed from the conflict was very disturbing. Why would we not step in before the volley of missiles and bombings took place? Most probably for the reasons raised by BK, not all nations have equal say or power in world politics.
Our divisions are deep and some are very darkly rooted in self interest. True we are all guilty of being self absorbed, but to idly wait for destruction and death just seems morally wrong whatever religion you subscribe to.
To say this pains me, but I have to agree about the issue over Pope Benedict.
He is an educated man, and he was chosen by a collection of Cardinals to represent Catholisism on the planet, but to use the words from an ancient era to represent modern times was a grievous error. I was baptised a Catholic and I hold no animosity towards the Pope as a man or against the Islamic teachings or the men who believe them , but for one to threaten the other with physical violence just really makes me wonder if there is ever any hope for any of us. The horror of it all is that every government on the planet is ruled by their laws that are based in religous teachings and there is no common belief system it seems that we can share.
That is why BK's words about one God interests me. I don't know how we can come to a common ideal that will save us all, but all I have to cling to is HOPE that is starting to slip away from me, just one person among millions & millions.
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Yuroon |
Posted: 22-Sep-06 22:27 |
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Watch this:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf
o/article15044.htm
It's about the End-time believers that believe that the end of the world is near. These are people who believe in the book of revelations and that God talks to them.
Just a bunch of lunnies from a out of control sect you might say but these people have access to the White House.
What the hell is wrong with religious fundamentalistic people, whatever their religion is? What makes them think that they are right and the other religions are wrong? What kind of serious mental disease are these people suffering from and why doesn't the world lock them up in a mental institution?
Having a belief has been a basic human need throughout history for lots of people. I guess it's the brain's own anit-depressant. But it gets scary when some people think they know it all and that God speaks to them and start a religion. Before you know it, it gets out of control.
Every religion now has it fundamentalistic fruitcakes and as long as they play a marginal role, things are not so bad.
But in every religion, these people get more power and that's what's scary.
[Edited by Yuroon on 22-Sep-06 22:49]
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Endevide |
Posted: 23-Sep-06 19:37 |
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Hi Yuroon.Hi guys.
I've been reading some of the replies but because of the time pressure not all of them.
I just read Yuroon, your last comment.
Two days ago in greek tv there was an american (fanatic-in my opinion) priest talking about this.
Of course what he said was totally insane.You know,he said that according the Holy Bible (that he thinks he can analyze well with his own knowledge on spirituality) the Jews -like we are not God's creature's..- will rule the world and blah blah,and then Russia will get the power (and that's something that you don't need a priest to see it,the new gas/petroil russian pipeline was about to start years ago,but they actually just started,wich means bad news for the US Gov. -the pipeline will make a shortcut through Bulgaria instead Turkey and Iraq).
Anyway, what i wanted to say was that he did actually admit that Bush is leading that way(the fundamentalists way). But remember one thing.The new kind of public relations and image of a president of that power IS religion.Look back how Bush is constantly talking about God,Good and Bad,listen carefully his speach,he's been told to use these language,Americans feel comfort and duty by hearing that they have to be the World's Sheriff and act right according their beleifs as a christian society.
The mass,(Americans or Mideast countries) are strongly raised that way,this means that whenever the word 'Crussade' is been used by the US Gov. the word 'Jihadd' is been used by the Arabs.And that has to do with history.History is is been treated differently by each sides.It may seem weird that they link the past like that,but propaganda is a powerfull weapon -and the 'amo' never ends..
In my opinion, the US citizens are still 'asleep'.Not stupid,just asleep,and that took years and many goverments to achieve their disorientation.So the worst of all is that the world won't be safe until the masses don't start collecting,at least,different opinions.
To end this long comment of mine,whatever i said about the Jews,the US citizen's and the Arabs doesn't mean that we are not one of them or that we couldn't be like them if we were in their shoes.And especially about the Bible and the Jews,name me one nation that doesn't think that they are 'special' or that they won't 'make it' at the end,it can keep a nation together as long as they don't pass the thin line of patriotism and chauvinism..
And about Europe.I don't think we should have many expectetions (i bet i spell that wrong!) 'cause our goverment's still have not great power in that area(or arabs oil-and that may be the 'cause of accepting Russia's pipeline wich as i said before will help as do a detour from Arabian nations,even though we aren't sure yet what the russian's will need for exchange in the future apart the great deal of money),but i'm VERY happy to see that at least the european people ARE awake and keep trying to gather different status instead of accepting whatever some leaders keep giving them.
So things here are a bit better,even though the aliance of some leaders with the US have harmed us.I still think that the 'wheel is turning' though.
It's a weird world we live in and the pieces are so few for everyone.
It's nice to see comments from different people though,don't forget to get in their shoes to understand them once in a while,it's also good to see celebritie's comment's too,even though unfortuanetly some times we tend to condemn them for their every opinion.
Respect to earn respect.
I'll get back as soon as possible.Sorry for my english grammar mistakes,my greek sound worst heheheh!
:D |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 24-Sep-06 17:42 |
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This was on a US TV show this week -called "BOSTON LEGAL". The main point of this clip is about "waking up" our citizens to the horrible things that have been allowed to continue for the past 5 years. Even though this TV program is supposed to be fiction, this particular episode was VERY real.
I'm just worried that the corporate world will pull the plug...which is what they usually do when anyone - especially anyone with media access (Dan Rather, Dixie Chicks etc) - becomes "unpatriotic".
I'm just gad someone is still "awake". Watch this clip -- it's powerful...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNSwZfLs
nis
[Edited by Boatkitten on 24-Sep-06 17:54]
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Yuroon |
Posted: 24-Sep-06 18:31 |
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Hi Boatkitten and welcome Endevide.
Will try to watch the Boston Legal fragment. Unfortunately, in the part of the world I am now, broadband internet is a euphamism.
Scary things are going on in the world and the old weapons of fear inducing are used: religion, terrorism, clash of civilisations etc.
But, many people all over the world are waking up. I don't know if it goes fast enough and in enough numbers. But it happens and all thanks to the Internet.
The other day I heard someone say that the Internet to people today was like what the invention of the printingpress was in the middle ages: a century later, many people had learned how to read and write and suddenly they had acquired new knowledge and skills. One of these was the realisation that the Church had lost it's monopoly on interpreting the Bible.
Before that, the people were fed the interpretation by the catholic church.
But now, the people could read for themselves what was written.
This ultimately led to the Reformation.
This again led to the studying of sciences and the awareness of humanity.
Maybe in the future, we can make the same conclusion about the Internet. Because now we have the opportunity to find other interpretations of what is going on in other part of the world and better still, we can interact with people from other parts of the world and hear their stories.
In the meanwhile, we have to fight to hold on to our rights to use this technology and we must spread the word so that others will also use it and that "a whole world will open up to them".
Yes Endevide, power in the world is shifting. New powers emerge (China, India, Iran) and old ones are reappearing. The Bear is back after it almost was destroyed by cowboy capitalism and shameless exploitation (the architect of the market reform in Russia admitted that it was designed to destabelise Russia even more).
Now in Russia you have a new elite that is a combination of goverment and business and maffia. But thanks to high oil prices, they Bear is back.
This weekend, the leaders of Russia, France and Germany -the so-called troika- came together to talk several things, among them energy.
Europe doesn't want what happened last winter to happen again. If you can recall, Russia was trying to bully Ucraine by cutting off oilsupplies. But since major pipelines to Western Europe also run through Ucraine, the Ucrainians decided to tap some oil off hence leading to shortages in Western Europe.
It's all about energy security.
And now you said Endevide that Russia is routing oil and gas to Europe through Bulgaria and not through Iraq and Turkey. I guess that doesn't make these countries and the US happy because they will miss revenues by taxing the oil running through their territory.
I think that all the conflicts in the world are really about power over resources whether they are mineral of human and over sovereignty. Iran wants nuclear energy and I'm sure nuclear weapons. They rejected offers of having the Uranium enrichment done for them by other countries because they want energy security in that respect. If one day, other countries decide to stop the Uranium enrichment for the the sake of bullying you into something (like Russia did with Ucraine), then they (Iran) would be insecure and lose sovereignty.
I strongly doubt though, Iran's necessity for nuclear energy because they sit on a sh*tload of oil.
The US doesn't want a nuclear Iran because that would be a threat to steady oil supply from the middle east. Iran could than easily decide to block off the Persian golf, the US reasons.
Or perhaps other motives are at stake.
But the 'leaders' in this world will use any argument, whether economically or religiously to keep the perpetual struggle of the human race going. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 24-Sep-06 18:58 |
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Ok Boatkitten, I managed to watch it and thought it was great. But there is one thing. I'm dying of curiosity. What was the verdict??? LOL! |
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Boatkitten |
Posted: 24-Sep-06 20:02 |
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Hi Yuroon,
Sorry, but I never saw the show - it's a cable show, not a regular network show.
I did find that this was aired back in March 2006. I never even heard about it til someone emailed me the clip.
Here's a blog that mentions how the USA has gone from Freedom to Fascism, using this TV program as exposing the truth that nobody wants to discuss due to fear of retribution.
http://pacinlaw.blogspot.com/2006/03/fa
scism-exposed-on-television.html
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Yuroon |
Posted: 24-Sep-06 22:08 |
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Ok, I looked at the Freedom to Fascism webpages. I had heard about the movie before but just vaguely.
I'm confused a bit. Does the filmmaker try to point out that there is no law that says that people have to pay taxes?
That's odd!
What else does he try to prove in his movie? What exactly is the role of the Federal Reserve System?
Can you give more info maybe?
I guess nobody likes to pay taxes but I do think taxes are a necessity to create -when implemented right- a stable society. Taxes provide the government the means to provide public services like infrastructure, law enforcement, schools, social welfare etc. etc.
But, in demanding the people to pay taxes, the government has to be accountable to the public in the way it's spending the tax revenue.
So the people has to have a thing to say in the way the taxes should be spend.
Seems to me that the US government is spending way too much money on defense and the military while other public services wither away. |
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blue eclipse |
Posted: 24-Sep-06 23:39 |
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So while you discuss Europe and Russia's attempt to strong arm the rest of Europe using the Ukraine to cut off oilsupplies, has anyone given any thought to what happens to Canada? The US has for a very long time tried to get a pipeline to go through sovereign Canadian land to ensure a steady supply of energy to/from Alaska, not to mention American companies that own huge amounts of stock in oil & natural gas taken from Canadian reserves. What happens after that? Military might will be used to keep energy supplies constant. The US is not the only country guilty of neglecting basic infrastructural expenditures in the name of economic strength....translate this into the commodification of natural resources.
Capitalism seems to be interchangable these days with facism doesn't it, if you can sell it in the disguise of "Religous" fervor.
[Edited by blue eclipse on 24-Sep-06 23:42] |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 25-Sep-06 12:06 |
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blue eclipse:
I don't know much about the Canada/US/pipeline situation. But I guess that you mean to say that the US uses political pressure to convince Canada to agree with sucha pipeline.
I guess from a economical point of view such a pipeline would benefit both countries. The US would no longer have to transport oil by expensive shipping and Canada would benefit by taxing the pipeline and the construction of it would attract business.
Of course, from an environmental point of view it's bad news for Canada because forests need to be cleared and there is the danger of spoiling and leakages like what is going on in Alaska.
Moving away from using ships though would avoid dangers like the accident with the Exxon Valdez.
Having a pipeline running over Canadian soil would give Canada political power over the US but I really can't see the benefit in that. And American soldiers on Canadian soil protecting the pipeline, I don't see it happening.
What makes the situation so different from that in Europe, is that Canada and the US always have been historical allies and are bound togther culturally (although a lot of Canadians would disagree) but European countries and Russia always have been historical adversaries and enemies.
But if Globalization has been good for one thing, it is that there is more awareness of the fact that everything in the world is interconnected and interrelated.
But we must also realize that all these issues regarding energy security and resources and the commodification of them pose a bigger strategic danger to the world at large, namely environmental security. Instead of focusing on getting more of the old forms of energy, we should focus on creating new renewable, sustainable and clean energies like hydrogen fuel, nuclear fusion, solar energy etc. These energies should then be make accessable to all the countries in the world.
Of course, this would upset a lot of things in the world like for instance the power that some countries have by bullying other countries with energy security. It would also upset the whole world economical system. But in the end it's a choice we have to make in order to save the planet. Because you can have all the power you want but if in the end you are left with an unliveble planet, what's the use?
I agree with you that Capitalism and Fascism are used interchangebly although philosophically speaking they are different things. Capitalism is an economical system where as Fascism is a political system. The latter demands that people subject themselves completely to the State and the supreme leader. The most notable examples of Fascist regimes are Mussolinies Italy, Nazi-Germany and Franco's Spain.
But Fascism in these countries never would have been possible without capital and therefore Capitalism. Of course Fascism demanded that industry and the banks subjected themselves to the State but the State was more dependent on the power of the capitalist and industrial elites than on the people.
So therefore many people nowadays associate Capitalism with Fascism.
And now there is the talk of Islamo-Fascism. And Leftish- and Rightish Fascism.
Basically, the word Fascism has taken on the meaning -or many people interpret it this way- of suppresion of the people by an authoritarian elite whether they are policital, economical or religious.
Have a good day! :-) |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 29-Sep-06 10:36 |
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The US Senate and Congress have approved new legislation arranging the treatment of terrorism suspects and combatants, bypassing the Geneva conventions.
And basically, it's left to the president to decide how these people should be treated. Well, with Bush's track record on illegal imprisonment, movement, interrogation and torture of prisoners, you can guess for yourself what that will amount to.
Don't know exactly the details of the law but commentators pointed out that the law can be widely interpreted (goverment lawyers like Addington will be good in interpreting and depending this law in their favor).
Commentators say it can easily be applied to "fifth column" people or movements and or course that could mean any American who oposes the government.
Fascism had arrived long time ago but now has gone legal.
Leaked pieces of the NIE report of April this year (and that has been held secret by Bush ever since) say that the war in Iraq only leads to more Jihaddists and terrorism. Bush and his wild bunch deny that while it is clear for everyone to see.
How come they are so arrogant inspite of all the evidence? How come they manage to pass this new law? Don't they know that elections are coming up in November?
Or do they know that the outcome of the election won't make a difference or is the outcome already "arranged" by rigging the Diebold voting machines?
I'm baffled.
This morning I saw on CNN a video tape made by a contractor truck driver.
His truck was part of a convoy going through Bagdad. They had taken a wrong turn due to 'faulty maps'.
They got ambushed. One truck went over on it's side and the people in it were executed. The driver that made the video was wounded and his truck incapacitated.
You could see a Hummer militray vehicle drive away.
The driver over his handy was shouting to the military patrol to come back.
He had to wait 40 minutes.
The military explained that the patrol had to find secure ground in order to defend their position and the truckdriver. The truckdriver complained on CNN about the military patrol unit, he they had left him.
But mister truckdriver: what do you expect? You go to Iraq, make $150,000+ a year and that it won't involve any risk?
Do you expect National Guards who are on their second or third tour and who make a lousy 40 bucks a day would risk their lives for a Halliburton leach like you? Do you think they care about you having to risk their lives for peanuts for your 150K+ retirement fund?
A couple of months ago we had on this forum one of those contractors. He made it clear that he only did it for the money. No higher motives were involved. He didn't care about the Iraqi people.
I kind of hoped it was him who had these scary moments.
I don't call for the death of anyone but I won't shed a tear either if any of these leaches gets hurt. |
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IM A FRIEND |
Posted: 29-Sep-06 15:39 |
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I was watching the g. bush speech this morning-Friday,Sept. 29 2006. I needed to cry, a good cry so I chose to view this video again. It worked. With the lyrics and passion that James puts into every piece of his music how can you lose. This video was done so well It truly moves me.
Sincerely,
Nazarine |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 21-Oct-06 15:47 |
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According to the medical journal the Lancet so far since the beginning of the war in Iraq, around 655.000 people have lost their lives either through combat or the civil war that is raging now.
Still mission accomplished? Is the wish for revenge for 9/11 fulfilled or do more people need to die to satisfy the war machine? |
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a sheep writes |
Posted: 21-Oct-06 20:06 |
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Yuroon, guess what - even the head of the British army is coming round to the views of those of us who oppose this war:
from this week's Daily Mail (right wing UK newspaper!)
"We should get ourselves out sometime soon because our presence exacerbates the security problems. We are in a Muslim country and Muslims' views of foreigners in their country are quite clear. As a foreigner, you can be welcomed by being invited in a country, but we weren’t invited certainly by those in Iraq at the time. The military campaign we fought in 2003 effectively kicked the door in." - General Sir Richard Dannatt
Dannatt's comments have caused a storm in the UK - could it be the beginning of the end of the bloodshed? Blair is increasingly isolated ...
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mommajude |
Posted: 21-Oct-06 22:07 |
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ACTUALLY THE PERSON THAT FIRST POSTED THIS IS NOT CORRECT. IT WAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE WAR IN BOSNIA WHERE JAMES WAS STATIONED IN THE MILATARY. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 22-Oct-06 00:58 |
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I get more news from this post than even the Daily Show gives me! I've been out for awhile and again I have tons of reading to catch up on..but thanks to all for keeping me up on all the information! It's great to hear different "angles" - and you all seem to be so very well informed and enlightened.
The dilemma I'm having and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on for me - is that we (the US) caused this terrible instability in Iraq and the entire region. Irag is in civil war and their infrastructure has been decimated. How can we leave them in this mess we created? What can we do to rectify the terror we have brought on them? Yes - in this way we are the terrorists. I know Saddam was an evil person, but it seems that there is the possibility that US officials could be brought up on war crimes if they started this war under false pretenses. But what I'm really upset about is what I said earlier. How can we abandon a country we have destroyed? What can we do? It doesn't seem right to just leave them without trying to rebuild, but either way, our presence would not be welcome. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 22-Oct-06 07:43 |
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Finally some action again here!
Sheep: yes you are right about the comments the general made although after that he had to be more careful with his words. It's the commanders on the ground that have a better idea what is going on than the politicians. The military of course needs to be under the control of the political decision makers. History is full of examples where the military made decicions on its own. We all know where that can lead to.
But politicians need to be accountable (and in fact are accountable but they always manage to escape it) for their decisions and so in the case of invading another country based on lies.
Tony Blair will not be remembered for the economical miracles he created but for getting involved in this war. His legacy will be that he was GWB's lapdog. They both created a world that has become far more dangerous.
Mommajude: yes, the song was written by James Blunt after the experiences he had in Kosovo. But don't you think that anti-war songs whether they were written for the Kosovo war, the Vietnam war or whatever war, are applicable to any war? War is always evil, even if a war is considered a just war because war ALWAYS leads to death and destruction. This war is particularly evil because it wasn't done for the love of the Iraqi people but to secure oil resources and to serve the interest of defense contractors.
Old Blondie: good to have you back!
I share you concern that "after creating this mess, how can we leave?". But it's like Sheep who quoted the British general saying that the presence of foreign troops only adds fuel to the fire. Now there is even talk of negociating with the insergents and of getting Syria and Iran involved just to put an end to this mess.
The situation is complex but maybe the parties involved should sort it out themselves.
The irony of it all is, that instead of bringing peace and democary to the Middle East, the situation has become more instable than ever. This war played into the hands of the fundamentalist regimes. They just had to sit back and wait.
Another irony that instead of securing oil resources is that when foreign forces have to pull out, the resources won't be secure.
And GWB his legacy will be that he led the world into a desastraous war with desastraous consequences. And it has led to a crack down on civil rights back home in America.
But is seems that the American people is finally waking up from the slumber its been kept into for far too long.
More and more people are not believing the lies the government and that big-business controlled media are feeding them anymore. More and more people get their information now from the Internet finding news that the big media doesn't tell you. There is a whole lot out there. Maybe that is only good thing to come out of this war: that the new technologies of the Internet age will make people more aware and critical.
[Edited by Yuroon on 22-Oct-06 07:49] |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 22-Oct-06 18:09 |
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In my "pollyanna-ish" optimistic view, I've kept hoping that the Bush administration would self destruct in their imperialistic arrogance. We're seeing a glimmer of that now - but Democrats must be very careful not to appear arrogant as well. The big election is not 2006 - but 2008. If they (the Dems) are too conceited and blood thirsty, they will loose the "big" one in 2008. Americans (myself included unfortunately) are fickle and uninformed. The percentage of Americans who vote is embarrassingly low. I feel like we've become fat, complacent cows waitiing for our next meal and have given up our freedom in exchange for this. Ah - guess I'm not so "pollyanna-ish, am I?). One of my favorite journalists is Paul Krugman on the New York Times. If, as predicted, the Democrats take control of the House of Representatives (probably not the Senate) - the big "card" they will hold is the ability to carry out investigations e.g. Abramoff scandal, Abu Ghraib, no-bid contracts such as those awarded to Halliburton in Iraq (don't get me started with Halliburton/Cheney - what an outrage!). But the Democrats just can't get too arrogant with this "pent up demand for revenge", or they will look petty and not get the things done that our nations needs. It will be a repeat of what happened in 1994 when the Republicans won Congress and then began their witch hunts against "Clintonesque Liberals". This only succeeded in making them look petty and vindictive and they then lost the portion of our country I consider more level headed; the centrists and independents. I have to remind myself that the US has had very dark episodes in the past and somehow have re-secured our rights. The way the Bush administration can twist their policies to look like just the opposite of what they are is a brilliant tactical P.R. move. The Patriot Act allows the government to insinuate itself into our lives like a cancer taking away our fundamental freedoms while cloaking itself in words that make those who oppose it look unpatriotic. Just the reverse is true! The Green Initiative that supposedly protects our natural resources instead gives big business more protection to "rape and pilage" our beautiful wildernesses in the name of oil and therefore national security. You have to give it to them - they are brilliant strategists, but they are also plain and simple liars cloaking their selfish agendas in simplistic word bites.
It's good to be back on the boards again. I'll probably have episodes where I disappear for awhile as the chemo proceeds. Amazing how much energy it takes to simply sit at the computer when I'm feeling ill. I also apologize because I know I'm not thinking as clearly as I would like & my writing suffers. |
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delaney |
Posted: 22-Oct-06 22:08 |
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you know that bravery wasnt about the iraq war its about time he spent when he was in the brittish army in kosovo. just to let you know if you didnt. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 22-Oct-06 22:22 |
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I think most of us know that James' experiences in Kosovo were the inspiration for No Bravery. It has spurred discussions here about all war and the affect on humanity. This has become a varied discussion on world events in general; past, present and future. I find particular solace and inspiration in learning from this global community of the boards. It's an amazing opportunity to speak to people from around the world about events that affect us all. It's really a timeless experience that I value completely. All ideas, knowlege, etc. are more than welcome. They are encouraged. We are all very lucky to have this forum. Thank you all for your input! And we don't always agree - a true global forum of the people. But I think we all respect each other and are open to new ideas and points of view. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 23-Oct-06 01:06 |
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I'm catching up a bit on my reading through these pages. I just want to comment on the September 24th issue regarding taxes. The U.S. is a great example of why we should be GLAD to pay taxes. Such an emphasis has been placed here on reducing taxes (especially for the ultra rich). As a result, our educational system is one of the worst in the world. Our roads and sewer systems are crumbling. We once had one of the best public school systems in the world, and then - the Conservatives started saying that lowering taxes was the only way to get our economy back on its feet (strangely it WAS on it's feet after 8 years of Clinton). Most people will want more money in their pay checks and so many of us went along with lowering taxes. I truely believe that the Conservative agenda is to get rid of anything that smacks of socialism. Social Security, Medicare, Public education. They are spending and spending until there is nothing left in our coffers and we have no choice but to do away with these wonderful programs that were so hard fought for after the great depression of the 30's. I simply hope that the US wakes up & realizes that taxes are a good thing as long as we know where the money goes & we have control over where it goes (not wars - but medical care, education, etc.). Conservatives want to send us back to the 1800's when it was every man for himself. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 23-Oct-06 10:26 |
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Old Blondie: I wish you all the best with your battle against disease. It must be difficult but I hope you can keep the strength up. Do whatever it takes to heal yourself, life is precious. I send you my positive energy.
:-))))
Well, a lot went on lately in the news and to remain positive, I have a feeling that people are waking up and realise that they have been kept sleeping.
I think that in the western world we have become complacent. Our lives have become maybe too comfortable. I guess there is nothing wrong with affluency.
But politicians like us this way. It makes us predictable and easy to influence.
I saw some interesting polls on CNN stating that now a large portion of the US population does not approve the Bush administration and the way the war and how the North Korean situation is being handled. Another poll said that many Americans have doubts about the role the US played in the 9/11 attacks.
There was also a poll suggesting that a large part of the population now thinks that the congressmen and women and people in the senate that 'represent' them actually are more interested in representing big business.
The problem is that a lot of people have become desillusioned and decide not to vote. Politicians of course don't want desillusioned voters to go and vote.
They like the sheeps (no pun intended, Sheep!) who they can mold and influence.
The problem is also that the political system doesn't offer much alternative.
There are only two major parties in the US system and both are the extremes of the same spectrum. It is time for viable alternatives and that asks for a whole rethinking of policies and philosophies.
And that means that people need to get involved and take an interest. I have the impression that's gradually taking place now. So there is hope still!
Information and misinformation are a big part of propaganda. Something that Goebbels and Stalin knew all too well.
Propaganda is used to influence people and voters. Mostly this is done by scaring people (how about that Republican add out recently showing Al Qaeda and a ticking clock!) so one must always be criticle. Internet gives you alternative sources of news and opinions. Therefore we must keep the Internet free.
Another way to influence voters is to promise them lower taxes. Hey, everybody likes low taxes, right! But a lot of people don't realise that taxes -when implemented right and people should be vigilant for that- gives you good public services like schools and infrastructure. Neoliberals (as in Adam Smith and the invisible hands) think that these services should be privatized. That will lead to people having to pay more in the end and will make some services only accessible to 'the haves'. The 'have nots' and 'have less' will be left out or left with substandard services.
In November, people should vote these Neoliberals and -worse even- the NeoCons away.
Have a good day! |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 23-Oct-06 18:25 |
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About 15+ years ago California approved "Proposition 13" which stated that property taxes could only be 1% of the property values. Example: owners of a house purchased for $200,000 would pay only $2,000 in property taxes per year. For comparison, I owned a house in New York's Westchester County in the 1980's and paid nearly $4,000 yearly taxes for a house worth less than $200,000. Quite a disparity. We delayed our move back to California so that our daughter could complete high school in New York in order to take advantage of the extremely good school system. Had we moved to California at that time, we would have to pay around $20,000 a year for her to attend a comparable private high school. Fortunately, the California State University system was still excellent and she earned her B.S. and then her PhD in biology from University of California at Santa Cruz and then UC Berkeley. With the combination of New York public schools and California Universities, she ended up with an excellent education. Now she's the mother of two young boys here in California. She knows she can't send them to the public schools. These schools are way below standard (I believe they rank 47 out of the 50 states in quality education). She will "home school" them up to point - & thank goodness she has the education to do this. After that she will go back to work and her entire salary will go to paying private school tuition. I have two friends of children in high school who are doing the same thing. Working full time jobs just to pay for private school tuition.
This is a glaring example of why lower taxes are not good for society as a whole. Most people are not in a position to work just for tuition. They have no choice but to put their children through public schools where violence, gang activity and quality of education are huge problems. Classes of 45-50 students to one teacher are common. And yet, most Californians still do not approve of higher taxes. If we restructured taxes with fewer loop holes for people earning over $200,000 a year, the problem could be solved. The U.S. high school drop out rate is 30%! I was amazed when I read that in a New York Times article. When these children are running the country we will be a nation of poor, uneducated people. A HUGE lower class, a small middle class, and a few elite upper class families. Sounds like feudalism in the dark ages to me.
In regard to our party system in the U.S., I used to consider myself an independent voter - not loyal to one party, but loyal to my own belief system and who I believed most closely shared it. I have changed. The current Republican administration has done such terrible damage to our nation. Our budget is a mess, we are in a war that no one can seem to find a way out of, our medicare system and social security are in jeopardy and our schools are substandard. All I want now is to see the Republicans OUT. I will vote a straight Democratic ticket to try and accomplish this. One of the reasons the Republicans got into power in the first place, is that Gore lost partly due to the independent vote going to Ralph Nader (o.k. - the Florida State Supreme Court helped too). I feel Nader was the better candidate, but divided, we fell. I want to get the Dems into office and see if we can straighten this mess out - then look into a three or four party system. THis sounds shallow - but I just don't think this country can survive another Republican presidency.
And we have a responsibility to the poor people in Iraq who have suffered so much at our hands. I feel we need to find a way to help them rebuild and stabilize the region - but we can't do it on OUR terms. We need to respect what they want and feel they need. Maybe money and some sort of Peace Corps is the only way. I just don't know. Any thoughts?
Yuroon - thank you for the welcome back. Don't be surprised if I just occasionally disappear....
as our governor Schwartzenegger said (in some stupid movie) - I'll be baaaaack! |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 23-Oct-06 20:28 |
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In the Netherlands things with the public schooling system are still ok, except that to me it seems that students are only interested nowadays in sending text messages, sex and drugs but that's the adult in me talking probably ;-)
Well, there are several different kinds of schoollevels. The lower ones are more prone to the abovementioned.
College and Univerisity education now becomes less affordable to some but the situation is not as bad as in the USA.
On average students pay 2000 to 3000 Euro tuition yearly with installments during the year. Students can get a goverment grand on a monthly basis, the rest they can borrow at favorable interestrates with a 15 year time period to pay back.
Good and affordable education is an investment into your society. It creates a bigger middle class that will pay more tax, have bigger salaries and more money to spend.
About the political situation: we have had some political turmoil the last couple of years and sometimes we curse the system in which we ALWAYS have had a goverment of coalition but I think it's a blessing. It means that the parties in the government always have to get to some sort of compromise and consession. Politics can therefore never be dominated by extremes.
We have up to 20 parties participating in elections and any time during governing, there are up to 12 parties in parliament.
Oh yeah, I forgot. We are only 16 million people!
[Edited by Yuroon on 23-Oct-06 20:43] |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 23-Oct-06 20:47 |
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20 political parties would certainly help ensure no one organization became too powerful...and the citizens would have more choice. I think it's great.
Did you know that when the US first started it's current form of government, the Vice President was the person who ran against the winner of the Presidential vote? Can you imagine President Bush with Vice President Gore? Seems so strange, but also more representative of the populace. Hope I'm explaining this clearly. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 23-Oct-06 21:48 |
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You explained it absolutely well.
Hmmm, president Bush with Al Gore as vice president? (I still consider Gore the president ELECT and Bush the president SELECT). I think they wouldn't function very well or maybe they would keep eachother in check.
I met Gore briefly when I lived in Bolivia and he was there for the Summit of the Americas. I made a picture of him with little bulbs of light in the ceiling forming an aureool around his head! Hilarious. But I do admire his struggle for the environment. I heard he made a movie called "an inconvenient truth" about the environment and how we are screwing it up.
I'm trying to find out more about the founding fathers of the US. The ones that wrote the constitution. These guys were not dumb. Although democracy then left a lot to be desired (only well off men were alowed to vote, not women let alone blacks and native Americans) they recognized a lot potential dangers that we nowadays we are a still faced with.
They advocated to replace the political elite every ten years or so to make sure that corruption wouldn't get a foothold.
And they considered that people have an obligation to stand up to a government that is oppresing them. I mean, they said it would be crime if people didn't.
Anyway, there is lot to discover about them. I guess Americans should also make a rediscovery about them and what they stood for.
To continue the comparison: many nations in Europe are constitutional democracies or constitutional monarchies. My country is a monarchy although myself I oppose monarchies. I want to choose my head of state, not being stuck with a feudal fossil from the middle ages.
America is a presidential democracy (although GWB consideres himself King I have the impression).
The difference is that in countries like the Netherlands and the UK, the prime minister has to give accountability to the congress. He/she physically has to be in parliament to have sessions with the members of congress and give accountability to his/her actions and policies. It's a different system of checks and balances. And even if the party of the prime minister would dominate the congress, minority parties still could have their day.
Personally I favor this kind of democracy although it can lead to endless bickering. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 24-Oct-06 00:12 |
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I like that - President Select....explains it perfectly! I haven't seen Gore's movie yet - but several friends have & say it's exceptional. Their only complaint was that at the end he listed ways we could all get involved and help. They felt this information should have been placed earilier in the documentary rather than at the end when most people are shuffling out of the theatre. Also - the information gave one a less pessimistic attitude. Must have been very interesting when you met Gore. And very ironic that you used electric power to make his picture!
A couple of books I can recommend about US History. "Founding Brothers" is a great one. I can't remember the author but I think it's David McCullough. He also wrote "1776" and "John Adams" (?). Both excellent. "1776" is specifically about America's beginning. "Founding Brothers" and "John Adams" goes more into the personalities and relationships of and between the founders. Another that is excellent - although it's about the U.S. Civil War. It's called "April 1865" by Jay Wink. Wow - is this one ever good. That's a point in time I find particularly fascinating. Abraham Lincoln consulted mediums (through his wife) during his presidency. One of them is a relative - Nettie Colburn. Our family joke is that she told him, "Sure, Abe. It's a great night to see a play." Just a bit of dark family humour.
I like your description of democracies. I so enjoy watching the British Parliamentary sessions when the Prime Minister is there and all these seemingly stuffy politicians get roudy and even a bit "baudy". More close to the truth of life than our "grumpy old men" in Congress. The presidency is not supposed to be so distant and imperialistic. But Bush has somehow managed to make himself closer to a king than a president. Like Nixon in the past, he separates himself from discenting ideas. He surrounds himself with sycophants and therefore looses touch with reality. He feels that the war powers act has given him authority that I feel was never intended in our constitution.
It's about time we Americans learn about other countries forms of government. We feel ours is so good - why should we learn about others. Our conceit (mine included) is amazing. The propaganda has been that we live in the world's most affluent and free thinking nation. How small minded of us! One of the best things about the internet is just what we all do here. People from all over the world can "compare notes" so to speak. Of course - English is the language we are forced to use. How many languages do you know? Languages are not really encouraged in our schools. We all speak, by necessity, some Spanish - especially if we live in California or another border state. I don't know any other language fluently. I can understand some German, Spanish and French, but I sure can't read or speak it. My daughter knows Spanish and French - both farely fluently. But she's an exception to the rule. Most of us simply expect people all over the world to understand us. I really yearn for more. I hope that if my health permits I can find a way to travel and learn other languages and become more educated about other countries and societies and realize that mine is not necessarily the best. Just one of.
If you look back in US history - it's very rare when the Senate, House of Reps and the president all have a majority of one party. This slows down passage of legislation and can be very frustrating. But it's also a safeguard that one faction cannot dominate. And that is what's happened in the last 6 years. There will most likely be a shift after the November 7th elections. Fewer people will feel disenfranchised (I hope!). And maybe - just maybe - this country will get back on course.
Phew - am I ever long winded. I've just been locked away for so many weeks! I feel like I just can't "shut up"!
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 24-Oct-06 00:26 |
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BK - thanks for the pacinlaw blog information. That's a great source. And sadly - it speaks a lot of truth. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 24-Oct-06 08:04 |
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Old Blondie, thanks for the tips on the books about the founding fathers. I will try to find out more about them.
Funny thing you said about Lincoln and mediums he 'consulted'. The other day on another forum someone wrote that one of Bush's forefarthers -I think a guy called Pierce- who was a politician, was for some time accused of being involved in Lincoln murder.....
I'm not saying it's true but it goes to show that the Bush family has a long tradition in politics and scandal.
My meeting with Gore lasted no longer than 10 seconds. I was maintaining the Summit's website. I saw him talking to someone, took a picture, interrupted him, handed him my card and explained about the website (he always has been a big advocate of the Internet, in one moment of euphoria saying he invented the Internet....). That's it. I managed to piss off the person who he was talking to before I interrupted. It was president Fujimori of Peru. But he is a bastard anyway.
I hope to see his film one day. I think it will help people to create a better understanding about what is going on in the world regarding climate change and what we can do about it on a personal level and as a society as a whole.
We need to get rid of fossil fuels. They can't tell me that while they put man on the moon, they can't find a way to make cars run on hydrogen for instance.
Anyway, the Internet gives us so much oppurtunity to get more information about other countries and ways of living. The big stimulant behind it is that you become actively involved. It's not like television which dictates what you see: you must actively look for it.
Not easy sometimes because there is a lot out there but wikipedia.org and google will get you started.
Therefore we must be vigilant that the Internet stays as it is. There is a lot of filth and nasty things on the Internet but most of it is good.
Authorities and big business tries to get more grip on the Internet. It is being monitored by the intelligence community and big business will try to get it's claws in it, making people pay if they want to get access to streaming video for instance.
I think we are all learning now about other parts of the world and their view on the world. Like you said, Americans for a long time have had the view that their country was the only free country in the world (the song "I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free" always makes me laugh).
In Europe I think that more people are becoming aware of the colonial past and the impact it still has on poverty in parts of the world.
I think you must always question the things you believe in. Be critical. A lot of thruth is illusion. To some extent we all need some illusion but when it becomes delusional then it's dangerous. In the West we like to see our development as the only way to go and it's true: it has brought us many good things.
But industrialization and modernity never would have been possible without colonization and the slave trade.
I posted on this forum (or volume 1 and 2) something about how I think history has taken place and that it's not all logical but that it always comes down to power. If you're interested, look for it. I don't pretend to have the answers (although I'm vain enough ;-))) ) but it's something I have been thinking on for quite some time.
Internet might be anarchic but I think more and more people start to realise that things in the world are interconnected and related. I hope more people will get a holistic view of the world. In this globalized world you can no longer see yourself or your country as seperated.
Keep it coming Old Blondie. And if you need or want to stay away then that's fine too!
[Edited by Yuroon on 24-Oct-06 10:02] |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 24-Oct-06 18:41 |
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My goodness! The president of Peru. I'm surprised his security let you get so close! You must look very safe (as I'm sure you are!). And how many people can say they personally pissed off the president of any country?! Good for you.
I heard recently that our F.C.C. is putting particular focus on finding a way to regulate the internet. Probably using national security as the reason. As you say - it's the first "bastion" of global inter-communication. The true "World is Flat" example. I'm sure they will keep trying, but I really hope that it's enough of a wild stallion that it will be impossible.
Re: Bush's ancestry. Someone once told me that the Bush's are also related to English royalty (and therefore most of European royalty). I'll have to see if I can verify that.
I absolutely LOVE conspiracy theories like the one you mentioned re Lincoln's assisnation. You might enjoy the old Mel Gibson movie of the same name: Conspiracy Theory. Very enjoyable and lots of food for thought. No religion included in the movie either. Guess that was before Mel's crusade.
I'll look for you previous posting later today. Another doctor's appointment in a few hours & that tells me I'll probably be pretty wiped out for awhile.
Britain's colonization is fascinating. I know many other countries did the same - but the U.K. in particular was genius. Such a tiny little island country that globalized in an amazing way. And started such revolutions as a result. In a way, they were the harbingers of world democracy such as Australia, India, U.S., Canada and on & on. In an effort to be free of British domination, they started their own free governments and movements.
I hope you find the books I mentioned. They really are fairly easy to read and loaded with interesting personal information. And I do have more similar books in my "personal library". Let me know if you want more titles.
As always - I enjoy this completely. It's my window to the world (literally!).
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Yuroon |
Posted: 24-Oct-06 21:49 |
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It was in '96. I was working for the secretariat of Summit of the Americas and had an all-access security pass!
The inauguration of the summit had just ended and everybody was mingling and socialising. That's when I took my chance! My 15 minutes of fame!
Oh well, back to earth ;-))
Conspiracy theories are always a lot of fun. I saw the Mel Gibson movie. I guess it had an impact on him because now he believes the Jews are behind everything in the world!
You'd have to careful with conspiracy theories because a lot is just plain nonsense but they start to get a life of their own. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you! ;-)))
I heard something about the Bush family being related to the British monarchy but don't know if it's true.
I do know that they can be traced back to the first people that left for America on the Mayflower. They actually also spent some time in Leiden in the Netherlands prior to that.
And of course, GWB his granddaddy worked for a Nazi bank until the USA got involved in the war. That's how they made their fortune.
Good luck with everything Old Blondie. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 24-Oct-06 22:49 |
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I guess we're getting a bit off topic - but I'm having fun with it!
There is definitely an American aristocracy. The Bush clan being part of it & from what you say, they have been for a long time. Interestingly enough - in America, I can trace my ancestry back to Sir Edwin Sandys and his brother George Sandys who helped found the Jamestown Colony. The father was also named Sir Edwin Sandys and was the Archbishop of York. At least I think I have that straight. Maybe it was the younger who was the Archbiship. Someday I'd like to go to Great Britain and look inot it. My grandmother's maiden name was Sandys. My "clan" sure isn't part of the aristocracy though. We somehow ended up on the "poor" end of the stick. Another relative came from Ireland to follow the Mormons to Utah. The father stole some wood from a farmer in Nebraska and was shot & killed leaving his five children and wife to fend for themselves. The wife died soon after from pneumonia. The three girls were "adopted" (euphamism for sold) to families in Nebraska and the two boys went on to Utah. I have letters that date back to 1848 that tell this story from the girl's point of view. Some family scandals also that my Gr Grandmother tried to hide. I have a small wooden box that's been passed down from oldest daughter to oldest daughter since 1828. Each woman adds something to the box that's of particular meaning to her. Nothing of monetary - but sentimental value. Interesting what was thought of as scandelous then is every day now.
Well - I'll be leaving soon for my doctor's appointment. Hopefully I'll be back on the boards in a few days. Maybe someone else will take up the slack in this thread. I've monopolized it and gotten it way off track. Sorry - I get a bit chatty after being cooped up for so long! |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 25-Oct-06 20:57 |
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I showed a friend of mine the video of James singing No Bravery and then the video with the war scenes.
He was a Marine in 1967 in Viet Nam. He was so near tears watching both of them. It really touches deep to see the look on James face as he sings it. Showing such heart felt emotion up on a big stage with an audience of strangers takes a special kind of bravery. Not too many people can do that. It's a wonderful gift that brings out many deep feelings. I'm looking forward to seeing him sing this song in person. I wonder if the energy from the audience influences how he sings. I've heard it can have a big impact on the artist if the emotion is strong, supportive. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 26-Oct-06 14:38 |
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Anti war songs like James Blunt's and the video made by Billy can be used to describe any war because war is ALWAYS full of death and destruction, even so-called 'just wars'. War by definition is the failure of politics and diplomacy and it's always the common man that has to pay the price and do the fighting.
The other day I heard that the Vietnam war really hit home when middle class people couldn't escape the draft anymore and eventually were sent to Vietnam. Before that they managed somehow to escape the draft by going to college. Well, that's how they explained it.
When middle class sons died, the protests became stronger. You see, it's always the middle class that will demand -and have the power to do it- changes.
That's why dictators and the like don't like the middle class. It's better to keep the people poor and ignorant. A tactic that worked throughout the centuries.
The other day, Old Blondie, you said something about how the founding fathers -or someone from that period- said that the loser of a presidential race should become the new vice-president.
I always had the impression that the vice-president of the USA had no power and was just a side-kick of the president and someone to have handy in the case something happened to the president.
But I heard that the vice-president has his/her own staff and everything. And from what's been going on the last years I have the impression that Cheney is the one that's really pulling the strings.
What are your thoughts on that?
A book called the Hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy says that the president is not the person really in power but he/she should take attention away from those who really are in power. The more outragious and excentric the president, the more he takes attention away.
[Edited by Yuroon on 26-Oct-06 14:43] |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 27-Oct-06 23:15 |
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I know I've said it before - but I absolutely LOVE conspiracy theories and the one you mention in your last paragraph is a great one & one that I've contemplated before as well.
I think this Bush/Cheny administration is different though. We really underestimated Bush. Made jokes about how stupid he is, etc. I think he's "stupid like a fox". Yes, he has terrible manners, cannot speak well and more or less acts and looks like a buffoon, but I think this plays into their greater plan. I do agree that Cheney is the power behind the throne - but Bush is part of the great American elite. He has financial and familial ties to the oldest and wealthiest families in the world (including the Saudis). They want to do away with the middle class (I like what you said about how dictators hate the middle class - excellent point). And they are doing a great job of doing away with us. They keep us in debt - working until we are dead, both parents need to work to make a decent living so we don't have energy to really find out what's going on in the world and politically. We're just plain TIRED and tired people don't have the energy to rebel, read, demonstrate, etc.
I was in high school during the Viet Nam war. Your description is pretty accurate. As the draft was increased and the "boy next door" was brought home in a casket, all of a sudden the middle class mothers, fathers and grandparents were out in the streets demonstrating against the war. (I'm sure you've noticed how careful Bush has been about not letting photos of these caskets get out to the public). That's when the Nixon administration had to take notice. I see similarities between Bush and Nixon. Nixon surrounded himself with people who agreed with him. He never heard discenting points of view. We see that again with Bush. But even worse - he would not even listen to trusted advisors like Colin Powell who voiced concern about the wisdom of going into Iraq. If advisors disagree with Bush, somehow they end up out on the streets. This very well could be Cheney's doing. He's an extremely powerful man with ties to people we can't even imagine how powerful and far reaching their influence is.
I think the V.P.'s power is determined by the president. I don't think the "founding fathers"meant this to be - but as our politics becomes more and more polarized the VP serves at the whim of the Pres. Clinton brought Gore into more of the political discussions and decisions than most prior presidents did. And I think Bush relies a great deal on Cheney. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 28-Oct-06 09:11 |
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What an excellent posting you made Old Blondie! You made some interesting points there.
I think that Bush is "as stupid as a fox" as you said it. I think he truly believes in what he does and he is cunning about it. But he just doesn't realize that what he does is wrong.
Just because someone believes in what he does, doesn't make it right. I think the people that he surrounded himself with, see him as a vehicle to get their own evil agenda through and they facilitate Bush's. Bush is cunning and clever in the sense that he managed to fool the envangelistic right for instance to support his policies. So he is just very clever and cunning to accomplish what he believes in. Other than that, I consider him a fool.
I somehow had the impression that under the Clinton administration, the people on board were joined by their intelligence and their will to do the common good. I think the members of the Bush administration are united in doing their own thing and as long as things go well, they will 'stay the course'. I think now that things are going wrong, it will be every man for himself and the blamegame will begin. When the Democrats hopefully will take over congress and the senate, this blamegame will begin.
Colin Powell was already the first victim. I kind of feel sorry for the guy because he was critical of the war. His mistake was not the quit while he could because now he is considered "the guy that tired to sell the Iraq war to the Security Counsil" with photoshopped evidence.
Excellent what you said about the middle class and how much harder it's becoming to make ends meet. It always surprises me to find out how little holidays Americans have compared to other parts of the world. Americans have to make long days. And you know what? In the end, the American worker is not more productive that it's counterpart in Europe or Asia. Because people can stay productive only a certain time during the day. After that they become less productive.
America created a big middle class after the second WW. The US was only "real" victor in the sense that it managed to convert it's war industry into civilian industry creating jobs and new wealth.
America was also the only country after the war that didn't stand down it's army. The "founding farther" -here they are again- considered that a threat to democracy, an army not standing down.
Eisenhower in his fairwell speech warned about the rise of the military industrial complex and the dangers of it. And this coming from a former general!
Anyway, the explosive growth of the American economy in the fifties and the sixties created a big middle class. It's the middle class that has the power and the brains to demand more liberties and rights etc. Now I hear from a lot of people that more and more Americans find it hard to stay middle class. So they are losing their power base. Like you said, people are just to tired to be active.
Is it a conspiracy? I don't know but I find it interesting to see that a small elite of people is owning more and more and that more people -worldwide- find it hard to make ends meet. It's not just an American phenomenon, it happens everywhere. Global elites owning everything, middle classes getting it harder and poor people being exploited and marginalised.
Conspiracy? If you smell a rotten fish, there is probably a rotten fish somewhere lying around. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 06-Nov-06 19:14 |
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ah - our mid-term elections are tomorrow (Nov 7, 2006). I wonder what will be the result? President Bush's dear friend, Carl Rove, is predicting that the Republicans will out vote the Democrats simply by showing up to vote. That's one thing that has always surprised me about we "Americans". We take voting for granted and don't really feel our vote makes a difference. One would think that after the Florida debacle in 2000 we'd know better. Republicans are notroriously more organized at motivating people to go out and vote. Democrats I think feel disenfranchised and are more willing to "give up". Possibly because so many Dems are from the lower classes. Perhaps they are correct.
I have absolutely no idea of what to expect. I hope the pundits are correct and that the Dems take back at least the House of Representatives if not the Senate as well. But perhaps Rove is correct and the big surprise will be that the Reps will stay in charge. If so - watch out. Bush will really begin using up that "collateral" he feels he'll be given. Which means he'll be hell on wheels heading in the same direction. Such conceit! |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 08-Nov-06 09:34 |
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Well, the start is there: the house of representatives is taken and the verdict is still out for the senate. It seems that change is going to happen.
But the work starts now and I guess a lot needs to be done.
I will be traveling for some time so I won't be here much but I will try even once in a while.
Happy 'foruming' to you all and I wish you well! |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 08-Nov-06 15:51 |
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Yuroon- happy traveling to you. I look forward to any news from you.
Yes - the work begins now, but I am so very thankful that "we" have woken up instead of being sheep to the Bu****es. Sheeps to the slaughter as far as I'm concerned! It was marking the end of the middle class which is what I believe makes the U.S. strong. Hurray for the middle class! Hopefully we are learning to fight our way back and not be so complacent. |
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blue eclipse |
Posted: 08-Nov-06 21:11 |
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Hey you two, you do have quite a runnin
g commentary going here.
I recently saw something interesting in
the news about Big Brother "keeping an
eye" on everyone in the UK. Apparently t
he UK is the most watched nation in the
world with security cameras and surveill
ance in every public place. George Orwel
l's vision is coming true, a coincidence
? or an understanding of human nature?
It is strange that the Brits colonised
the planet, spawning democratic societie
s globally. However it is not funny that
those who left the shores of Great Brit
ian did so to flee the long arm of the A
ristocracy in their native lands. The re
volution in the United States in retrosp
ect wasn't about freeing the nation from
the control of the Monarchy , but it wa
s about wresting some of that power for
those who wouldn't have had it otherwise
.
The people who have broken and tamed th
e land in North America are the infant c
hildren of history, like that of Europe.
If we keep track, those who came here f
rom Europe, are the beginnings of the ru
ling class. All of us, poor, lower, midd
le, upper middle class and the obscenely
wealthy are re enacting history on the
continent of North America. It is one of
the final frontiers left to redeem our
purpose on the planet. I don't think any
one is going to survive if we don't wake
up to reality- it will be hard to colon
ise outer space if we're an extinct spec
ies.
Money doesn't buy every thing.
____________________________________
Fast forward to the future- 2006, if th
e Bushes are the "aristocratic" ruling f
amily of North America, conspiracy theor
ies aside, are we due for a Revolution a
gain? Just asking what you thought? Do M
iddle Class people know it's time to wak
e up? It seems so hopeless to think we
will never learn to ignore the baser "an
imal" instincts- kill or be killed. Ther
e are many ways to annihalate competitio
n, but why? Nature needs diversity to pe
rpetuate the species. If everyone was se
lf absorbed and selfish, how long before
the last ONE left is all ALONE?
[Edited by blue eclipse on 08-Nov-06&nb
sp;21:22] |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 09-Nov-06 00:41 |
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SO glad to hear from a third party, Blue!
Here in the future of 2006 - no, I don't really think the middle class will "wake up" and start a revolution - letting that great mandella go round and round. I just think on a whole we're too comfortable. Our lives come to us through the television. What else do we need? We can live vicariously through our soaps and football and CNN news scandals thinking we're really a part of it. We can pick up the phone and order a pizza or Chinese food delivery. Like the Orwellian future - pretty soon we won't have to leave our houses at all. Unless something like another 9/11 attack happens on our front doors (or back yards). I remember how frightened I was (back in the day - 1968) when a friend of mine who was a member of the Weather Men (or maybe it was Students for a Democractic Society) said to me that the day will come very soon when we'd all have to choose a side. If we didn't join him - then we were his enemies. He was a very %^*&%ed up ex-Marine who served some very hard time in Viet Nam. All the history that was crammed into the 1960's from the Bay of Pigs to the assasinations of the two Kennedys, King, Malcolm X. The race riots, the killings at Kent State, the riots at the Democratic Convention in Chicago 1968. That was a wild and scary time. But there was no revolution as predicted. What followed was a near depression and huge gas "shortage". We would-be revolutionaries were now raising families and scaried of loosing everything. We dug right into the establishment and carved out a nice safe little niche. I for one, still have not come out of my niche. Too much to loose?
This falls right into my wonderful conspiracy theory. We 1960 folks were "punished" like bad children by the real rulers of the world. Pushed into submission so that now we just want our MTV and maybe some vacation time in Mexico.
Maybe I have the beginnings here of a nice who dunnit story.
What you said about the UK being the most watched society in the world is really true. You hit on a great point there. I remember thinking when terrorists were caught in London - there were an awful lot of videos of them on the street and subways. A lot more than there would be here in the US. Those survielance cameras must be everywhere!
I'm getting ready to see James this weekend up in Oakland. I can't believe the time is here already. I'm so excited about it. I've been so sick - I just hope I can stay healthy enough and have enough energy to do it. I will....I will....... I'll just have to accept that the entire following week I'll be "out for the count". |
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blue eclipse |
Posted: 09-Nov-06 05:38 |
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Old Blondie, you're not feeling well? I think I recall reading that somewhere in another thread. I hope you enjoy your time with the rest of the fans who can share what James does best- spread the love.
I don't recall the turmoil of that era, as I was a toddler. But North American culture has been changed by what the generation of the 60s & 70s tried to do. We do recall, even now through the medium of MTV and the frozen TV dinners of the past how troubled everyone was by the seemingly endless parade of blood shed, gas shortages and the Flower Power.
We are revolutionary everyday that goes by. It takes time for people to realise that the anesthetic of having it so good just doesn't fill the void anymore. It takes time for people to see the damage they do when it is too late to undo the damage. For every person who sees the future as it really is, there are tens of thousands who can't see past their front yards. But every revolution needs a spark, and it takes time for the flame to catch, but I think we will make right what we got wrong as best as can be expected given what we've done so far. A cruel teacher is experience, remorse is the salve that heals the wounds . Let all the nations feel the remorse for what has gone wrong. Peace will follow, I hope.
So it seems we stand at the abyss, and we watch the future loom on the horizon.
I am as guilty as any for being complacent more often than not. But I do see that all is not well.
I want my grand children to have it as good if not better than I did. I do not want to leave this life knowing that I did nothing to change what my generation had a hand in destroying. We learn from the past. I hope there is a lot of people in power cramming for the exam, or we all get the biggest "F" ever. For all our technology and advancement in science, we seem to be swinging with the "apes" for all the good it did the planet....shame on us. All of us. Even those who look to be what they see us do. I'm bummed now. Talk to ya later.
[Edited by blue eclipse on 09-Nov-06 05:41] |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 10-Nov-06 19:50 |
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sorry you're bummed.....but you wrote so beautifully and with a lot of hope.
the US elections seem to be showing us that Americans are waking up. We can dare to have a little optimism about the future. How did we put up with so much for so long from the Bush administration? I think that 9/11 rocked us so very much that we were willing to let some of our freedoms go in the name of safety. What we gave up was our patriotism and idealism. We became frightened and that lets the "bad guys" win. The Patriot Act scared me more than anything else the Bush admin did. It was the beginning of a "Big Brother" so big that I could see a future of computer chips implanted in our brains to monitor us in the name of patriotism! So interesting the way he manages to put a name to something that is actually the opposite of what it really does!
I see so much good in the next generation. I don't see the cynism that my generation suffered from after the idealism was knocked out of us! My daughter, her husband and children choose a difficult life outside the "norm", but in return they have freedom. They are more or less "off the grid" and do the best they can to help humanity by doing the best they can with their small little bit of the universe. I hope I am doing the same.
I'm busy storing up my energy for this weekend's concert. I'm SO excited! I wonder what James will be like in person? I can feel that spark being lit already. |
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wannetta |
Posted: 14-Nov-06 06:56 |
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No Bravery speaks to me of soldiers who's eyes see the truth of what war brings and how the innocent bravery of soldiers is replaced by a deep and encompassing sadness. My heart cries for the bedlam that war brings and the innocence lost. I cannot even imagine and mourn for those who do not have to imagine for they know the truth first hand. What do you think about what happened with the Dixie Chicks?
I can only imagine how Dawn would be such a beautiful moment in life.
Namaste |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 14-Nov-06 16:19 |
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who do you think "He" is? Or does it even matter. I remember the old song "Universal Soldier" with the words "and he really is to blame", but don't buy that. I don't think the soldiers are any more than pawns in a game that powerful men play with the world. The video shows flashes of Bush and bin Laden....but the "He" is bigger than they are.
And you're so right.... it's only the soldiers who see what really happens. That must do both terrible and wonderful things to their minds and souls. Some don't deal with it well. Others write beautiful music like what has joined us here on these pages. Some withdraw into themselves and never come out. Others find a spark to change the world even if it's only their small part of it. But whatever it does is profound and those of us not directly involved I don't think can ever really know.
I applaud the Dixie Chicks. They had a right to say what they did just as their fans who didn't like it had a right to boycott them. But I think time has proven that they had more perception than most into what was really going on.
so hello, wannetta. Are you new to these pages? Welcome! And thanks for your insightful comments. |
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wannetta |
Posted: 15-Nov-06 02:23 |
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I do think the "he" is very important yet to me "it" meaning he is really not gender specific. I read a book this past year called "Left to Tell" by Immaculee Ilibagiza. The sub title is "discovering God amidst the Rwandan holocaust". My goal is to share with others a womens journey that inspires me on a daily basis to forgive all. It truly is an amazing story that gives a clear picture of who "he" or as I would prefer "it" is. My truth says that "it" is all of us and therefore, I take responsability for my part now as the one thing I am sure is that we are all connected and therefore all a part of everything that happens. That is why I believe so many relate to James Blunt and his songs. His songs come from that place of which we are all individually and ultimatey a part of and he is, for whatever reason, given the ability to tap into "it" and through the songs speaks "it". Namaste to all who recognize that which is themselves.
oh and please excuse my spelling as I know it is bad... |
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wannetta |
Posted: 15-Nov-06 02:23 |
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I do think the "he" is very important yet to me "it" meaning he is really not gender specific. I read a book this past year called "Left to Tell" by Immaculee Ilibagiza. The sub title is "discovering God amidst the Rwandan holocaust". My goal is to share with others a womens journey that inspires me on a daily basis to forgive all. It truly is an amazing story that gives a clear picture of who "he" or as I would prefer "it" is. My truth says that "it" is all of us and therefore, I take responsability for my part now as the one thing I am sure is that we are all connected and therefore all a part of everything that happens. That is why I believe so many relate to James Blunt and his songs. His songs come from that place of which we are all individually and ultimatey a part of and he is, for whatever reason, given the ability to tap into "it" and through the songs speaks "it". Namaste to all who recognize that which is themselves.
oh and please excuse my spelling as I know it is bad... |
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wannetta |
Posted: 15-Nov-06 02:28 |
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Oh and hello to you Old Blondie. I have read the posts on this thread and think you have much insight to share thank you for that. |
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Yuroon |
Posted: 15-Nov-06 11:47 |
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Hi there, I'm back.
I returned to the Netherlands last week after one and a half year living in Belgrade. I'll be spending some time here, then go to Spain and then probably back to Belgrade.
Nice to see a lot of activity on this forum. Welcome to old and new people.
Coming back "home", I noticed so many changes. This truly has become a consumer society. New shops popped up everywhere, bigger shops, more stuff to buy. We have become an affluent society. I could have know of course because I also see it happening in the Balkans. More billboards, more shockingly stupid commercials and tv programs.
there is nothing wrong with some affluency but it nullifies your brain.
It makes you complacent, a sheep if you will.
My society has become a super individualistic one. Everyone is noticing it, everyone is complainig about it (a survey showed that after Russia and France, the Dutch consider themselves to be the rudest people in the world when it comes to manners) but noone does anything about it.
Well, there is a saying that says "opinions are like *ssholes, everybody's got one".
I want to add: "individuals are like *ssholes, everybody IS one".
Someone (I think Blue) wrote that we are retreating into our homes and soon we don't have to leave it anymore.
And yes, England has become a Big Brother society: there are over 4 million security cameras in the UK and on average every Briton is caught on camera 300 times a day.
All for the sake of security of course.
Because it's not safe out there! don't you know, there are people out there tryin to kill us! Be afraid, be very afraid!
Regards. Old Blondie, get well soon. |
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Old Blondie |
Posted: 15-Nov-06 15:43 |
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